4 ms·

This is a sensible argument, but there is absolutely a reality on the ground. San Francisco has horrid problems compared to all other US cities I have been to.

This is a sensible argument, but there is absolutely a reality on the ground. San Francisco has horrid problems compared to all other US cities I have been to. It is even more extreme when you compare it to international cities. The crime, homelessness and excrement is extremely visible, in the statistics and while walking down the street. It is bad, it is broken, and it doesn’t need to be that way. I spent a month in 5 separate cities this year, one of which was Vienna. Vienna is spectacularly well run through the result of decades of well considered governance. A significant contribution is a yearly investment in public housing which has prevented property speculation bubbles and given marginal people a place to live. The first step to fixing a problem is to admit you have a problem.

wolverine876 5y ago
Have you seen any high-quality data on the state of SF? It's such a political issue that I have a hard time finding anything but propaganda and rants. Real data would help understand what happens where, when, etc., rather than a general 'human feces!' alarm bell. No American city is going to turn into Vienna! Also, it is said (maybe complete BS), the culture that makes Vienna so beautiful also produces fascists and the murder of many Vienna residents.
- more_corn 5y ago
  You don’t need statistics you need real reports of quality of life from people living there. What you mistake as rants are people who live there telling you they hate it. What other data do you need?
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    > What other data do you need? Actual data. Emotional testimonials are a terrible way to set public policy. See also the security theatre we've instituted in our airports since 9/11. Going off of people's self-reported experiences is how you get policy driven by mass hysteria like the "Satanic Panic"[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic
    - diogenescynic 5y ago
      Why do we have to argue when we can just use Google? The data backs up what he is saying: >8 Out of 10 Residents Believe Crime Has Gotten Worse in San Francisco; Vast Majority Support Increasing Police Officers and Expanding Police Work https://sfchamber.com/new-polling-shows-that-8-out-of-10-residents-believe-crime-has-gotten-worse-in-san-francisco-vast-majority-support-increasing-police-officers-and-expanding-police-work/ https://sfchamber.com/new-polling-shows-that-8-out-of-10-res...
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > You don’t need statistics you need real reports of quality of life from people living there. What you mistake as rants are people who live there telling you they hate it. What other data do you need? At this date, we still don't understand that such things on the Internet are completely unreliable?
    - dougmwne 5y ago
      If you don't believe the news, and you don't believe the statistics, and you don't believe the anecdotes, then what would you believe? Do you have any first hand experience of the city at all? I'm not some shill. I have no agenda. I tried to live in SF, and left because things that don't occur in poor countries are an every day occurrence on the street there. Everyone I knew was affected and everyone had their own stories. But more than any other place, San Franciscans can deny reality and blame it all on Reagan, the weather, the red states, anything but themselves better than anyone.
- zepto 5y ago
  Have you lived in SF for any length of time? Everyone I know who has lived in the Bay Area for a decade or more has seen the decline. It seems like you are trying to understand what is going on just by reading news reports, which I agree is very hard. A lot of people have seen it with their own eyes.

wolverine876 5y ago

Have you seen any high-quality data on the state of SF? It's such a political issue that I have a hard time finding anything but propaganda and rants. Real data would help understand what happens where, when, etc., rather than a general 'human feces!' alarm bell. No American city is going to turn into Vienna! Also, it is said (maybe complete BS), the culture that makes Vienna so beautiful also produces fascists and the murder of many Vienna residents.

more_corn 5y ago
You don’t need statistics you need real reports of quality of life from people living there. What you mistake as rants are people who live there telling you they hate it. What other data do you need?
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  > What other data do you need? Actual data. Emotional testimonials are a terrible way to set public policy. See also the security theatre we've instituted in our airports since 9/11. Going off of people's self-reported experiences is how you get policy driven by mass hysteria like the "Satanic Panic"[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic
  - diogenescynic 5y ago
    Why do we have to argue when we can just use Google? The data backs up what he is saying: >8 Out of 10 Residents Believe Crime Has Gotten Worse in San Francisco; Vast Majority Support Increasing Police Officers and Expanding Police Work https://sfchamber.com/new-polling-shows-that-8-out-of-10-residents-believe-crime-has-gotten-worse-in-san-francisco-vast-majority-support-increasing-police-officers-and-expanding-police-work/ https://sfchamber.com/new-polling-shows-that-8-out-of-10-res...
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > You don’t need statistics you need real reports of quality of life from people living there. What you mistake as rants are people who live there telling you they hate it. What other data do you need? At this date, we still don't understand that such things on the Internet are completely unreliable?
  - dougmwne 5y ago
    If you don't believe the news, and you don't believe the statistics, and you don't believe the anecdotes, then what would you believe? Do you have any first hand experience of the city at all? I'm not some shill. I have no agenda. I tried to live in SF, and left because things that don't occur in poor countries are an every day occurrence on the street there. Everyone I knew was affected and everyone had their own stories. But more than any other place, San Franciscans can deny reality and blame it all on Reagan, the weather, the red states, anything but themselves better than anyone.
zepto 5y ago
Have you lived in SF for any length of time? Everyone I know who has lived in the Bay Area for a decade or more has seen the decline. It seems like you are trying to understand what is going on just by reading news reports, which I agree is very hard. A lot of people have seen it with their own eyes.