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I'm an old timer and I've built many sites. Laughed at bootstrap since day one, especially when it's on job ads. That said I tried to use pico and bulma in sma

by keyle 5y ago

I'm an old timer and I've built many sites. Laughed at bootstrap since day one, especially when it's on job ads. That said I tried to use pico and bulma in small personal project and it's handy to have a baseline. The problem is that you inevitably spend most of the time later override and fighting the said frameworks that helped you get going quickly. So I wonder, if you know CSS, are you really saving time?

fermuch 5y ago
Back in the internet explorer times bootstrap was invaluable. Even if you were very good at CSS you just needed a different set of rules for ie. You might be interested in tailwind. I'm unsure how to explain it, but it is a pleasure to use once you get used to it.
- hamlsandwich 5y ago
  The key difference between tailwind and something like Pico is the semantics. Tailwind (AFAIK) totally divorces semantics and styles, so you as the dev have to apply everything. Pico aims to use as much of the HTML's semantics as possible, so you have to apply less yourself. Personally, I love the semantic value of a well-structured HTML document, but both approaches definitely have their advantages.
- andrei_says_ 5y ago
  It brings a certain immediacy and malleability which feel very empowering and eliminates the cost of naming things. At the price of a verbose class soup everywhere. I can’t bear to look at the soup so I don’t use it much.
28uwedj 5y ago
Yeah frameworks are terrible, But tailwind is amazing. once you get your config set up you chern out templates/designs. there is no fighting to override stuff either.
andrei_says_ 5y ago
If you apply inverted triangle css you apply general styles at first and then bring in more detail when needed. ITCSS makes you think and work with the cascade resulting in almost never reverting anything. Super efficient.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  Why does this need a name? Isn't the C in CSS enough? Serious question, this seems to be exactly how CSS was designed to function.
- jhgb 5y ago
  So this "inverted triangle CSS" is normal CSS as intended, then?
themodelplumber 5y ago
Yes, IMO you're saving time if you designed in your use of the framework and properly leveraged it toward saving time. I built a Skeleton site almost 10 years ago. Do I want to put in a new framework now? No way. Do I feel like using skeleton now? Meh, nope. But do I need to update the site? Also nope! Because of the original plan--do about a month of work and then make future updates meet a minimum bar to qualify site design changes. I didn't feel like it was a maintenance gamble at all. IMO you can plan for the most likely course of long-term maintenance, choose a framework that matches, and be in a much better position. Especially if your site can quickly leverage the often nasty stuff like accessible form or menu frameworks, or modals. Plus, it's really not that hard to override most old frameworky parts for changes that work well enough. Details involved, yes. But clever solutions are really abundant at various levels. This is also why "elegance" in frameworks is a thing.
btown 5y ago
Bootstrap can absolutely grow beyond its clichéd defaults. Use the SCSS version, import after setting SCSS variables to remove border radii/set a custom $primary color/use a custom font, swap out FontAwesome for something like streamlinehq.com, and you suddenly have a modern-feeling website. It's an excellent place to start, even in 2021.
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jacobsenscott 5y ago
Nobody's forcing (hopefully) you to override bootstrap. Embrace constraints and focus on building the features that are unique to the business. It is unlikely innovating on UI is core to the business.

by keyle 5y ago

fermuch 5y ago

Back in the internet explorer times bootstrap was invaluable. Even if you were very good at CSS you just needed a different set of rules for ie. You might be interested in tailwind. I'm unsure how to explain it, but it is a pleasure to use once you get used to it.

hamlsandwich 5y ago
The key difference between tailwind and something like Pico is the semantics. Tailwind (AFAIK) totally divorces semantics and styles, so you as the dev have to apply everything. Pico aims to use as much of the HTML's semantics as possible, so you have to apply less yourself. Personally, I love the semantic value of a well-structured HTML document, but both approaches definitely have their advantages.
andrei_says_ 5y ago
It brings a certain immediacy and malleability which feel very empowering and eliminates the cost of naming things. At the price of a verbose class soup everywhere. I can’t bear to look at the soup so I don’t use it much.

28uwedj 5y ago

Yeah frameworks are terrible, But tailwind is amazing. once you get your config set up you chern out templates/designs. there is no fighting to override stuff either.

andrei_says_ 5y ago

If you apply inverted triangle css you apply general styles at first and then bring in more detail when needed. ITCSS makes you think and work with the cascade resulting in almost never reverting anything. Super efficient.

dotancohen 5y ago
Why does this need a name? Isn't the C in CSS enough? Serious question, this seems to be exactly how CSS was designed to function.
jhgb 5y ago
So this "inverted triangle CSS" is normal CSS as intended, then?

themodelplumber 5y ago

Yes, IMO you're saving time if you designed in your use of the framework and properly leveraged it toward saving time. I built a Skeleton site almost 10 years ago. Do I want to put in a new framework now? No way. Do I feel like using skeleton now? Meh, nope. But do I need to update the site? Also nope! Because of the original plan--do about a month of work and then make future updates meet a minimum bar to qualify site design changes. I didn't feel like it was a maintenance gamble at all. IMO you can plan for the most likely course of long-term maintenance, choose a framework that matches, and be in a much better position. Especially if your site can quickly leverage the often nasty stuff like accessible form or menu frameworks, or modals. Plus, it's really not that hard to override most old frameworky parts for changes that work well enough. Details involved, yes. But clever solutions are really abundant at various levels. This is also why "elegance" in frameworks is a thing.

btown 5y ago

Bootstrap can absolutely grow beyond its clichéd defaults. Use the SCSS version, import after setting SCSS variables to remove border radii/set a custom $primary color/use a custom font, swap out FontAwesome for something like streamlinehq.com, and you suddenly have a modern-feeling website. It's an excellent place to start, even in 2021.

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jacobsenscott 5y ago

Nobody's forcing (hopefully) you to override bootstrap. Embrace constraints and focus on building the features that are unique to the business. It is unlikely innovating on UI is core to the business.