3 ms·

This is more about Gnome’s Mutter implementation problem, not directly problem of Wayland. There are other compositors

by nicce 5y ago

badsectoracula 5y ago
One issue with these "other compositors" is that you aren't just replacing the compositor itself but you have to replace the entire environment.
GhettoComputers 5y ago
What compositor should be used? Never heard x.org doesn't have this problem with any.
- jagrsw 5y ago
  I'm not an expert on the wayland/xorg/xinput/gnome-shell stack, but unless someone smarter takes good measurements of various things (visual and input delays), I'd suggest 1). Xorg + gnome-flashback or Xorg + other non-compositing WM or 2). Non-gnome compositor under wayland As for 1). Xorg b/c it can provide pointer movements at ~native speed via xnput vs Gnome/Wayland 60-240Hz. And gnome-flashback b/c it's a non-compositing WM, so there's no frame buffering (unless you enable it in nvidia's panel, or via TearFree in amdgpu). As for 2). Sway, I suppose, doesn't aggregate mouse movements, but looking at https://zamundaaa.github.io/wayland/2021/12/14/about-gaming-on-wayland.html https://zamundaaa.github.io/wayland/2021/12/14/about-gaming-... the author used some hack to enable "immediate" "drawing" under KWin. I'm not sure what's the default behavior of e.g. Sway - does it buffer frames?
- nicce 5y ago
  X.org has many other problems, mostly related to screen tearing or security bugs. It is getting closer for the end of its life as being too complicated and not well designed project. Some list of Wayland compositors: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Wayland#Compositors https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Wayland#Compositors Personal recommendation goes for sway, once you understand it, there is no going back! On Gnome, you must use Mutter I guess.
  - badsectoracula 5y ago
    > X.org has many other problems, mostly related to screen tearing or security bugs. It is getting closer for the end of its life as being too complicated and not well designed project. That is FUD. Screen tearing is subjective issue, personally i never cared for it and my biggest annoyance with Windows is that its forced compositor also adds vsync which forces input lag across the desktop. X allowing me to not use that garbage is a big plus. With a fast refresh rate monitor tearing is practically invisible anyway. Also X11 applications can avoid screen tearing, if some do not then this is a bug in the application. Security bugs is overblown and Wayland security features are akin to keeping your computer turned off to get the best security. In practice if you do not trust an application you can isolate it, though it is really futile since applications can simply use other means than X to "spy" you. X already provide functionality for doing that but if you are really paranoid (why are you running untrusted applications in that case?) you can run a nested X... or even X under Wayland under X. Then once you notice the onionwrapped application launch your browser or any other application, you'll realize the futility of said onionwrapping but hey, until that moment you'll feel safe. > end of its life Xorg is an open source program, you can't "end of line" an open source program, it isn't Visual Basic 6 that died because Microsoft decided it should die. As long as someone wants to improve it, it will get improvements. Also a new version was released just a few weeks ago with a new maintainer that offered to make new releases. > being too complicated Have you actually checked the source code? If you ignore the drivers and all the satellite libraries (like Xt, Xaw, etc) the X server itself isn't really that big or complicated. > not well designed project This is irrelevant, it does what it is supposed to do.
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      I always hear these same talking point as well. Why do they want to say things that doom x.org so much? It is some sort of meme that's spewed out from people that want everyone to switch to wayland? I feel like everytime I hear a security issue almost anywhere its paranoia, overblown and generally so improbable that if I never heard of it I would be fine. I disabled spectre and meltdown and recommend everyone else who has an updated browser to as well.
    - 5y ago

This is more about Gnome’s Mutter implementation problem, not directly problem of Wayland. There are other compositors

by nicce 5y ago

This is more about Gnome’s Mutter implementation problem, not directly problem of Wayland. There are other compositors

One issue with these "other compositors" is that you aren't just replacing the compositor itself but you have to replace the entire environment.

GhettoComputers 5y ago

What compositor should be used? Never heard x.org doesn't have this problem with any.

jagrsw 5y ago
I'm not an expert on the wayland/xorg/xinput/gnome-shell stack, but unless someone smarter takes good measurements of various things (visual and input delays), I'd suggest 1). Xorg + gnome-flashback or Xorg + other non-compositing WM or 2). Non-gnome compositor under wayland As for 1). Xorg b/c it can provide pointer movements at ~native speed via xnput vs Gnome/Wayland 60-240Hz. And gnome-flashback b/c it's a non-compositing WM, so there's no frame buffering (unless you enable it in nvidia's panel, or via TearFree in amdgpu). As for 2). Sway, I suppose, doesn't aggregate mouse movements, but looking at https://zamundaaa.github.io/wayland/2021/12/14/about-gaming-on-wayland.html https://zamundaaa.github.io/wayland/2021/12/14/about-gaming-... the author used some hack to enable "immediate" "drawing" under KWin. I'm not sure what's the default behavior of e.g. Sway - does it buffer frames?
nicce 5y ago
X.org has many other problems, mostly related to screen tearing or security bugs. It is getting closer for the end of its life as being too complicated and not well designed project. Some list of Wayland compositors: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Wayland#Compositors https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Wayland#Compositors Personal recommendation goes for sway, once you understand it, there is no going back! On Gnome, you must use Mutter I guess.
- badsectoracula 5y ago
  > X.org has many other problems, mostly related to screen tearing or security bugs. It is getting closer for the end of its life as being too complicated and not well designed project. That is FUD. Screen tearing is subjective issue, personally i never cared for it and my biggest annoyance with Windows is that its forced compositor also adds vsync which forces input lag across the desktop. X allowing me to not use that garbage is a big plus. With a fast refresh rate monitor tearing is practically invisible anyway. Also X11 applications can avoid screen tearing, if some do not then this is a bug in the application. Security bugs is overblown and Wayland security features are akin to keeping your computer turned off to get the best security. In practice if you do not trust an application you can isolate it, though it is really futile since applications can simply use other means than X to "spy" you. X already provide functionality for doing that but if you are really paranoid (why are you running untrusted applications in that case?) you can run a nested X... or even X under Wayland under X. Then once you notice the onionwrapped application launch your browser or any other application, you'll realize the futility of said onionwrapping but hey, until that moment you'll feel safe. > end of its life Xorg is an open source program, you can't "end of line" an open source program, it isn't Visual Basic 6 that died because Microsoft decided it should die. As long as someone wants to improve it, it will get improvements. Also a new version was released just a few weeks ago with a new maintainer that offered to make new releases. > being too complicated Have you actually checked the source code? If you ignore the drivers and all the satellite libraries (like Xt, Xaw, etc) the X server itself isn't really that big or complicated. > not well designed project This is irrelevant, it does what it is supposed to do.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    I always hear these same talking point as well. Why do they want to say things that doom x.org so much? It is some sort of meme that's spewed out from people that want everyone to switch to wayland? I feel like everytime I hear a security issue almost anywhere its paranoia, overblown and generally so improbable that if I never heard of it I would be fine. I disabled spectre and meltdown and recommend everyone else who has an updated browser to as well.
  - 5y ago