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A useful way to think about religion, is to acknowledge that there are certain universal human features that never go away. For example, there will always be a

A useful way to think about religion, is to acknowledge that there are certain universal human features that never go away. For example, there will always be a highest principle by which a person's life is ordered (if they seem to change a lot, that highest principle might be their Self). It is very useful to consciously think about and cultivate the way that we might recognise our highest value, and the way we interact with it. We should realise potentially negative consequences of having the wrong thing for our highest value. This type of consideration is best classified differently to other life questions, and historically questions like this have been classified using the term "religious". This "highest value" is a placeholder in the human mind that Christianity would claim should be occupied by God. Once you reframe the conversation like this, you realise that there is no such thing as "non religious" people, and in fact denying a religious aspect of life is a form of suppression that could cause damage, because driving the most important questions of life into the subconscious realm makes a person vulnerable to ideological possession, e.g. through politics.

foogazi 5y ago
> Once you reframe the conversation Sure, move the goalposts and everyone scores
acchow 5y ago
> For example, there will always be a highest principle by which a person's life is ordered https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png
- trees101 5y ago
  isn't it just obvious? We have to make decisions. Each decision is made (consciously or subconsciously) by weighing up the predicted outcome according to a set of values. Those values inevitably conflict, so they have in turn to be judged by a yet higher value. And so on until there is a top value. You might think that some people change their values on a whim, but that in fact shows that something like their Self is their top value. Unless our behaviour was completely random, I don't know how this could be any other way. If you insist on a citation, I'll refer to St Augustine. Here's a popular culture level article about it https://www.huffpost.com/entry/augustine-sin-quote_n_56980d51e4b0778f46f8b931 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/augustine-sin-quote_n_56980d5...
Ensorceled 5y ago
Religion is "The belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers, regarded as creating and governing the universe." I'm an atheist, I don't believe in higher powers. I'm non religious. My highest "placeholder" is a society that values all its members equally regardless of race, intelligence, physical abilities, sexual or gender preferences.
- trees101 5y ago
  Many atheists do believe in higher powers, though. What about something like Patriarchy or institutional racism? These are higher powers that are said to exist beyond any individual, and to be propagated subconsciously and perhaps even unwillingly by people? What is a power other than something that modifies behaviour, and what is "higher" other than something that exists outside of an individual, and across multiple individuals? Without wanting to take sides on any culture war issues, I think that people from any political persuasion will agree that such higher powers do indeed exist. I put it to you that much talk of "spirits" is far more aligned to the kind of higher power that you already believe in, rather than the dualistic way of seeing spirits as some kind of invisible smoke hiding inside living creatures. This kind of thinking is a curse of our modern age, handed down from the likes of Descartes and the "Enlightenment".
  - honkycat 5y ago
    This argument is incoherent. I can prove that institutional racism exists and patriarchy exist in modern society. The same cannot be said for a god.
    - trees101 5y ago
      what do you mean by "exists"? They don't exist as a solid physical object. They exist more like a gust of wind, which moves all the leaves in the same direction and that's all we see. You can't "prove" that they exist, you can only postulate them as theories that explain why we see a whole collection of physical data that we can see. Your proof might be considered good if it coherently explains a large amount of the data, and makes predictions that come true. But you certainly can't "prove" that they "exist" to the same level of proof that an atheist will demand for the existence of God. Patriarchy and institutional racism are even ascribed agency, they "want" to hurt people, rather than merely being general forces such as gravity or a fluid flow.

foogazi 5y ago

> Once you reframe the conversation Sure, move the goalposts and everyone scores

acchow 5y ago

> For example, there will always be a highest principle by which a person's life is ordered https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png

trees101 5y ago
isn't it just obvious? We have to make decisions. Each decision is made (consciously or subconsciously) by weighing up the predicted outcome according to a set of values. Those values inevitably conflict, so they have in turn to be judged by a yet higher value. And so on until there is a top value. You might think that some people change their values on a whim, but that in fact shows that something like their Self is their top value. Unless our behaviour was completely random, I don't know how this could be any other way. If you insist on a citation, I'll refer to St Augustine. Here's a popular culture level article about it https://www.huffpost.com/entry/augustine-sin-quote_n_56980d51e4b0778f46f8b931 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/augustine-sin-quote_n_56980d5...

Ensorceled 5y ago

Religion is "The belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers, regarded as creating and governing the universe." I'm an atheist, I don't believe in higher powers. I'm non religious. My highest "placeholder" is a society that values all its members equally regardless of race, intelligence, physical abilities, sexual or gender preferences.

trees101 5y ago
Many atheists do believe in higher powers, though. What about something like Patriarchy or institutional racism? These are higher powers that are said to exist beyond any individual, and to be propagated subconsciously and perhaps even unwillingly by people? What is a power other than something that modifies behaviour, and what is "higher" other than something that exists outside of an individual, and across multiple individuals? Without wanting to take sides on any culture war issues, I think that people from any political persuasion will agree that such higher powers do indeed exist. I put it to you that much talk of "spirits" is far more aligned to the kind of higher power that you already believe in, rather than the dualistic way of seeing spirits as some kind of invisible smoke hiding inside living creatures. This kind of thinking is a curse of our modern age, handed down from the likes of Descartes and the "Enlightenment".
- honkycat 5y ago
  This argument is incoherent. I can prove that institutional racism exists and patriarchy exist in modern society. The same cannot be said for a god.
  - trees101 5y ago
    what do you mean by "exists"? They don't exist as a solid physical object. They exist more like a gust of wind, which moves all the leaves in the same direction and that's all we see. You can't "prove" that they exist, you can only postulate them as theories that explain why we see a whole collection of physical data that we can see. Your proof might be considered good if it coherently explains a large amount of the data, and makes predictions that come true. But you certainly can't "prove" that they "exist" to the same level of proof that an atheist will demand for the existence of God. Patriarchy and institutional racism are even ascribed agency, they "want" to hurt people, rather than merely being general forces such as gravity or a fluid flow.