5 ms·

> Apps stealing keystrokes? Sounds like an anti feature Sounds like that right until the user tries to press Alt Tab on a full-screen VNC or VM client.

dijit 5y ago
Alt tab not being stolen might be jarring. But I’d rather not have apps overriding the compositor because then I might not be able to escape them. There is some comfort in the universality of many things.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  >Alt tab not being stolen might be jarring. It is jarring to need to remember different keystrokes by the compositor if you use more than one computer, especially if they're not all linux. Why do you think its worth all this pain? Every "feature" of wayland sounds like a regression. I hope someone makes x.org in rust
  - dijit 5y ago
    Sounds like you just don’t like change honestly. Which I could agree with you- I dislike change too, I fight systemd because I don’t see it benefiting me. But this is a bit silly, you keep coming up with rotating surface level complaints but the main reason X11 was replaced was because it was architecturally broken not because they wanted to solve specific issues. That there is no great community around wayland is because of naysayers like yourself. Things are easier to solve than they used to be but people are doing everything they can to avoid using wayland. Things like nvidia forcing people to use X11 have caused distro maintainers to do double the work to maintain backwards compatibility; which means it hasn’t had as much love as X11 over the years either. Normally I would take the stance of “what ever works” but you sound like you’ll do anything to justify not switching. Arguing about creature comforts or that your compositor has more control over your UX than some random program is an absolutely surface level argument when we’re talking about fundamental and required architecture changes for us to go forward with desktop Linux. That you don’t understand how dire the situation was becoming is quite telling. It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have.
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      >Sounds like you just don’t like change honestly. I would gladly hop in a better car, if the newer car has less features and is worst, I will not. >That there is no great community around wayland is because of naysayers like yourself. Things are easier to solve than they used to be but people are doing everything they can to avoid using wayland. Rust has plenty of naysayers, as does pipewire. People hate Apple stuff with a passion, but they are all good. Wayland works on GNOME, which is a fact. I even said if its "good enough" it will take a long time for more application support, unless I hate myself and resign myself to no configuration GNOME. The reason it has no community is because it sucks. >Normally I would take the stance of “what ever works” but you sound like you’ll do anything to justify not switching. Arguing about creature comforts or that your compositor has more control over your UX than some random program is an absolutely surface level argument when we’re talking about fundamental and required architecture changes for us to go forward with desktop Linux. You don't get to decide what the direction of desktop linux is, or what people want to do with their open source software. I could say that the dolphin is the stupidest animal in the world, and nobody would take me seriously. Wayland sucks, if tomorrow x.org didn't exist, I would not continue to use linux. There is no benefit for most users in this thread. I even said I used it on a touch device to get rotation working on my touch tablet, but you ignored that because I have a different preference than you. Every "feature" of wayland sounds like a regression if doublespeaking as regression in features is going forward. >That you don’t understand how dire the situation was becoming is quite telling. It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have. There is a new maintainer, I will continue to use the best tools for myself, which will not be wayland for any non touch computer. Wayland design is... good It's taken over a decade to add a fraction of x.org features, random plugins needed to make it imitate x11, and with less features it still crashes? If it such a required architeture change, why is it making everything worst? What does forward even mean, less features with more crashes? No thanks. If it was so great why does it still suck compared to the so called dire x.org? >It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have. Do you love broken userspace? That's great, choose a compositor that breaks your userspace? My mentality of having robust software is the opposite. Suprise! Nobody wants to use crappier software with less features despite the dire "problems" of x.org, they made a rational choice, which bothers you so much. Why does it matter what I run? You look down on everyone's problem as invalid, calls our mentality wrong, and can't even define what forward is, or why anyone cares, because nothing you say is a benefit matters. Don't be suprised if wayland never gets used or doesn't ever gain traction, other half baked projects like btrfs that are inferior to even older software are not going to be used over better alternatives. You are dishonest about screen tearing being an issue, and calling my custom hotkeys "stealing keystrokes", saying its fundamentally broken when wayland breaks more things, and instead of the project acknowledging user needs, they ignore it and somehow wonder why nobody want to use it. I'll end by saying wayland is fundamentally broken, it has less features, no gains to non graphics or productivity, no benefits and more drawbacks to most users, the wonderful future of the "forward thinking" design that strips useful features and ignores what people like about x.org is beneficial to everyone. No, it is inferior in every way except for gyroscope screen rotation and slightly smoother movements, something that is compartively worthless to the suite of useful x.org features.

dijit 5y ago

Alt tab not being stolen might be jarring. But I’d rather not have apps overriding the compositor because then I might not be able to escape them. There is some comfort in the universality of many things.

GhettoComputers 5y ago
>Alt tab not being stolen might be jarring. It is jarring to need to remember different keystrokes by the compositor if you use more than one computer, especially if they're not all linux. Why do you think its worth all this pain? Every "feature" of wayland sounds like a regression. I hope someone makes x.org in rust
- dijit 5y ago
  Sounds like you just don’t like change honestly. Which I could agree with you- I dislike change too, I fight systemd because I don’t see it benefiting me. But this is a bit silly, you keep coming up with rotating surface level complaints but the main reason X11 was replaced was because it was architecturally broken not because they wanted to solve specific issues. That there is no great community around wayland is because of naysayers like yourself. Things are easier to solve than they used to be but people are doing everything they can to avoid using wayland. Things like nvidia forcing people to use X11 have caused distro maintainers to do double the work to maintain backwards compatibility; which means it hasn’t had as much love as X11 over the years either. Normally I would take the stance of “what ever works” but you sound like you’ll do anything to justify not switching. Arguing about creature comforts or that your compositor has more control over your UX than some random program is an absolutely surface level argument when we’re talking about fundamental and required architecture changes for us to go forward with desktop Linux. That you don’t understand how dire the situation was becoming is quite telling. It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    >Sounds like you just don’t like change honestly. I would gladly hop in a better car, if the newer car has less features and is worst, I will not. >That there is no great community around wayland is because of naysayers like yourself. Things are easier to solve than they used to be but people are doing everything they can to avoid using wayland. Rust has plenty of naysayers, as does pipewire. People hate Apple stuff with a passion, but they are all good. Wayland works on GNOME, which is a fact. I even said if its "good enough" it will take a long time for more application support, unless I hate myself and resign myself to no configuration GNOME. The reason it has no community is because it sucks. >Normally I would take the stance of “what ever works” but you sound like you’ll do anything to justify not switching. Arguing about creature comforts or that your compositor has more control over your UX than some random program is an absolutely surface level argument when we’re talking about fundamental and required architecture changes for us to go forward with desktop Linux. You don't get to decide what the direction of desktop linux is, or what people want to do with their open source software. I could say that the dolphin is the stupidest animal in the world, and nobody would take me seriously. Wayland sucks, if tomorrow x.org didn't exist, I would not continue to use linux. There is no benefit for most users in this thread. I even said I used it on a touch device to get rotation working on my touch tablet, but you ignored that because I have a different preference than you. Every "feature" of wayland sounds like a regression if doublespeaking as regression in features is going forward. >That you don’t understand how dire the situation was becoming is quite telling. It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have. There is a new maintainer, I will continue to use the best tools for myself, which will not be wayland for any non touch computer. Wayland design is... good It's taken over a decade to add a fraction of x.org features, random plugins needed to make it imitate x11, and with less features it still crashes? If it such a required architeture change, why is it making everything worst? What does forward even mean, less features with more crashes? No thanks. If it was so great why does it still suck compared to the so called dire x.org? >It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have. Do you love broken userspace? That's great, choose a compositor that breaks your userspace? My mentality of having robust software is the opposite. Suprise! Nobody wants to use crappier software with less features despite the dire "problems" of x.org, they made a rational choice, which bothers you so much. Why does it matter what I run? You look down on everyone's problem as invalid, calls our mentality wrong, and can't even define what forward is, or why anyone cares, because nothing you say is a benefit matters. Don't be suprised if wayland never gets used or doesn't ever gain traction, other half baked projects like btrfs that are inferior to even older software are not going to be used over better alternatives. You are dishonest about screen tearing being an issue, and calling my custom hotkeys "stealing keystrokes", saying its fundamentally broken when wayland breaks more things, and instead of the project acknowledging user needs, they ignore it and somehow wonder why nobody want to use it. I'll end by saying wayland is fundamentally broken, it has less features, no gains to non graphics or productivity, no benefits and more drawbacks to most users, the wonderful future of the "forward thinking" design that strips useful features and ignores what people like about x.org is beneficial to everyone. No, it is inferior in every way except for gyroscope screen rotation and slightly smoother movements, something that is compartively worthless to the suite of useful x.org features.