6 ms·

Rob Pike (2001): Presentation looking back on 1 billion seconds of Unix. [pdf]

57 points by bdhe 15y ago

Rusky 15y ago
Graphics, at least on Linux, seem to be headed in a much better direction than at the time of this presentation. Intel open source drivers, Gallium3D, DRI, etc. all are culminating in the much-simpler, less redundant, and (imo) more Unix-y architecture of Wayland. I also think it's interesting how he describes text files as both a strength and a weakness. I definitely agree here- grepping or awking a log file is very flexible, but ad-hoc, regex-style parsing-and-unparsing through pipes is very bad for real systems (i.e. not bash one-liners). He also says "Drifting back towards typed, binary files (Ugly)." I would have to disagree here and say that something like a Lisp machine environment could have many (all?) of the advantages of Unix while solving some of the problems of text interfaces.
- sjs 15y ago
  If Wayland delivers on the multiple monitor support that would help put Linux back in the running for me.
  - keeperofdakeys 15y ago
    Personally, I think multi-monitor support is quite good, at least with my window manager (awesomewm). Xrandr stretches the X session accross both screens, and awesome will clone it's interface for the other screen. Each screen has independent workspaces, and you can move windows between the screens by dragging them or using keyboard shortcuts. The only downsides are wallpaper stretching doesn't work well (but it may just be the application I'm using to set it) and the fact that there is a 'space' where the mouse will disappear into if you use two non-conforming screen heights next to eachother. If you find that the default screen settings isn't very good, or don't want to figure out xrandr, try arandr, a very good xrandr gui.
    - sjs 15y ago
      You have to restart X to hotplug displays with some drivers. That's a deal-breaker.
      - keeperofdakeys 15y ago
        At least for the intel drivers, this isn't a problem.
  - thristian 15y ago
    X11 has great multiple-monitor support, and has done for some time now. Unfortunately, many users are using video drivers from nVidia or ATi, and those vendors tend to have half-finished or sketchy implementations of less-mainstream features like multiple-monitor support. Like in so many things, if you've got Intel graphics, everything pretty much works out of the box.
    - sjs 15y ago
      After using Linux for a few years and learning that you had to do a bit of research and buy hardware carefully to make sure it all worked, I discovered that I could choose ever so slightly more carefully and everything would work with even less effort. I use a MacBook for my main workstation and since finding Divvy and SizeUp haven't missed Linux it all. I just want a Unix machine that I don't have to fuss over or spend time setting up and maintaining.
      - thristian 15y ago
        Weirdly, that's the reason I switched from OS X to Debian. OS X's hardware support is fine, but I do a bunch of hobby and open-source programming, wrestling with getting stuff to compile under OS X is just not my idea of a fun afternoon. MacPorts is a joke compared to the size and reliability of Debian's package archive, and Debian doesn't make you compile everything yourself, or leave multiple, uncleaned build-trees lying around for every package you install.
        sjs 15y ago
        That's a good reason to prefer Linux. If OS X didn't have pretty stable and easy system upgrades and migrations I would miss Linux package managers. Copying the list of installed packages to a new machine and then running aptitude update is just awesome. I have pretty moderate package manager needs so homebrew is good enough, and when homebrew doesn't have it I just install from source.
hippich 15y ago
I still strongly believe that Linux strength is in so many variances. For me it is natural way of building things. Probably, slower and taking more resources, but evolved, not engineered.
- xyzzyz 15y ago
  I'd rather put my faith in carefully engineered, not randomly evolved solutions.
  - arethuza 15y ago
    What operating systems would you regard as "carefully engineered"?
    - tekacs 15y ago
      Also, perhaps OS X? If there's an OS out there where everything from top to bottom seems engineered in harmony, it has got to be OS X...
      - niklasl 15y ago
        OSX has a MacOS user interface bolted on top of NeXTStep, and underneath it all there is a BSD/Mach hybrid kernel.
        tekacs 15y ago
        That may be, but a user's perception when using the OS (even as a developer) is one of relative harmony, nowadays - Apple have worked hard to unify these disparate parts and make them work well together - hell they even managed to minify it successfully to produce iOS...
    - ez77 15y ago
      Maybe MINIX? But they don't tend to stick, for some reason.
    - 15y ago
jaekwon 15y ago
I definitely feel what Rob feels, that there is work left to be done. The question is, what more can be done? How can we bring more of the community together into a flexible system?

57 points by bdhe 15y ago

Rusky 15y ago

Graphics, at least on Linux, seem to be headed in a much better direction than at the time of this presentation. Intel open source drivers, Gallium3D, DRI, etc. all are culminating in the much-simpler, less redundant, and (imo) more Unix-y architecture of Wayland. I also think it's interesting how he describes text files as both a strength and a weakness. I definitely agree here- grepping or awking a log file is very flexible, but ad-hoc, regex-style parsing-and-unparsing through pipes is very bad for real systems (i.e. not bash one-liners). He also says "Drifting back towards typed, binary files (Ugly)." I would have to disagree here and say that something like a Lisp machine environment could have many (all?) of the advantages of Unix while solving some of the problems of text interfaces.

sjs 15y ago
If Wayland delivers on the multiple monitor support that would help put Linux back in the running for me.
- keeperofdakeys 15y ago
  Personally, I think multi-monitor support is quite good, at least with my window manager (awesomewm). Xrandr stretches the X session accross both screens, and awesome will clone it's interface for the other screen. Each screen has independent workspaces, and you can move windows between the screens by dragging them or using keyboard shortcuts. The only downsides are wallpaper stretching doesn't work well (but it may just be the application I'm using to set it) and the fact that there is a 'space' where the mouse will disappear into if you use two non-conforming screen heights next to eachother. If you find that the default screen settings isn't very good, or don't want to figure out xrandr, try arandr, a very good xrandr gui.
  - sjs 15y ago
    You have to restart X to hotplug displays with some drivers. That's a deal-breaker.
    - keeperofdakeys 15y ago
      At least for the intel drivers, this isn't a problem.
- thristian 15y ago
  X11 has great multiple-monitor support, and has done for some time now. Unfortunately, many users are using video drivers from nVidia or ATi, and those vendors tend to have half-finished or sketchy implementations of less-mainstream features like multiple-monitor support. Like in so many things, if you've got Intel graphics, everything pretty much works out of the box.
  - sjs 15y ago
    After using Linux for a few years and learning that you had to do a bit of research and buy hardware carefully to make sure it all worked, I discovered that I could choose ever so slightly more carefully and everything would work with even less effort. I use a MacBook for my main workstation and since finding Divvy and SizeUp haven't missed Linux it all. I just want a Unix machine that I don't have to fuss over or spend time setting up and maintaining.
    - thristian 15y ago
      Weirdly, that's the reason I switched from OS X to Debian. OS X's hardware support is fine, but I do a bunch of hobby and open-source programming, wrestling with getting stuff to compile under OS X is just not my idea of a fun afternoon. MacPorts is a joke compared to the size and reliability of Debian's package archive, and Debian doesn't make you compile everything yourself, or leave multiple, uncleaned build-trees lying around for every package you install.
      - sjs 15y ago
        That's a good reason to prefer Linux. If OS X didn't have pretty stable and easy system upgrades and migrations I would miss Linux package managers. Copying the list of installed packages to a new machine and then running aptitude update is just awesome. I have pretty moderate package manager needs so homebrew is good enough, and when homebrew doesn't have it I just install from source.

hippich 15y ago

I still strongly believe that Linux strength is in so many variances. For me it is natural way of building things. Probably, slower and taking more resources, but evolved, not engineered.

xyzzyz 15y ago
I'd rather put my faith in carefully engineered, not randomly evolved solutions.
- arethuza 15y ago
  What operating systems would you regard as "carefully engineered"?
  - tekacs 15y ago
    Also, perhaps OS X? If there's an OS out there where everything from top to bottom seems engineered in harmony, it has got to be OS X...
    - niklasl 15y ago
      OSX has a MacOS user interface bolted on top of NeXTStep, and underneath it all there is a BSD/Mach hybrid kernel.
      - tekacs 15y ago
        That may be, but a user's perception when using the OS (even as a developer) is one of relative harmony, nowadays - Apple have worked hard to unify these disparate parts and make them work well together - hell they even managed to minify it successfully to produce iOS...
  - ez77 15y ago
    Maybe MINIX? But they don't tend to stick, for some reason.
  - 15y ago

jaekwon 15y ago

I definitely feel what Rob feels, that there is work left to be done. The question is, what more can be done? How can we bring more of the community together into a flexible system?