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I can do font scaling in x.org, my screens also just work. I have DPI scaling but it doesn't seem to be switch when I take my laptop off the dock. Wayland sessi

I can do font scaling in x.org, my screens also just work. I have DPI scaling but it doesn't seem to be switch when I take my laptop off the dock. Wayland sessions seem smoother, most software I use isn't adapted to the new model yet, and for the cost of losing my global hotkeys, redshift, and other useful things that matter, its not worth it to see smoother animations, I'd rather turn them off. Edit: I never had screen tearing on video.

dijit 5y ago
Redshift -> Gammastep Hot keys are handled by the compositor. Global ones especially. (Apps stealing keystrokes? Sounds like an anti feature) Point stands. But I’d rather we work on improving things than just living with X11- it’s like continually adapting token ring networks instead of embracing star topology. It’s fundamentally difficult or impossible to fix. The wayland authors (who are former X11 devs) talked about this extensively.
- AshamedCaptain 5y ago
  > Apps stealing keystrokes? Sounds like an anti feature Sounds like that right until the user tries to press Alt Tab on a full-screen VNC or VM client.
  - dijit 5y ago
    Alt tab not being stolen might be jarring. But I’d rather not have apps overriding the compositor because then I might not be able to escape them. There is some comfort in the universality of many things.
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      >Alt tab not being stolen might be jarring. It is jarring to need to remember different keystrokes by the compositor if you use more than one computer, especially if they're not all linux. Why do you think its worth all this pain? Every "feature" of wayland sounds like a regression. I hope someone makes x.org in rust
      - dijit 5y ago
        Sounds like you just don’t like change honestly. Which I could agree with you- I dislike change too, I fight systemd because I don’t see it benefiting me. But this is a bit silly, you keep coming up with rotating surface level complaints but the main reason X11 was replaced was because it was architecturally broken not because they wanted to solve specific issues. That there is no great community around wayland is because of naysayers like yourself. Things are easier to solve than they used to be but people are doing everything they can to avoid using wayland. Things like nvidia forcing people to use X11 have caused distro maintainers to do double the work to maintain backwards compatibility; which means it hasn’t had as much love as X11 over the years either. Normally I would take the stance of “what ever works” but you sound like you’ll do anything to justify not switching. Arguing about creature comforts or that your compositor has more control over your UX than some random program is an absolutely surface level argument when we’re talking about fundamental and required architecture changes for us to go forward with desktop Linux. That you don’t understand how dire the situation was becoming is quite telling. It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have.
        GhettoComputers 5y ago
        >Sounds like you just don’t like change honestly. I would gladly hop in a better car, if the newer car has less features and is worst, I will not. >That there is no great community around wayland is because of naysayers like yourself. Things are easier to solve than they used to be but people are doing everything they can to avoid using wayland. Rust has plenty of naysayers, as does pipewire. People hate Apple stuff with a passion, but they are all good. Wayland works on GNOME, which is a fact. I even said if its "good enough" it will take a long time for more application support, unless I hate myself and resign myself to no configuration GNOME. The reason it has no community is because it sucks. >Normally I would take the stance of “what ever works” but you sound like you’ll do anything to justify not switching. Arguing about creature comforts or that your compositor has more control over your UX than some random program is an absolutely surface level argument when we’re talking about fundamental and required architecture changes for us to go forward with desktop Linux. You don't get to decide what the direction of desktop linux is, or what people want to do with their open source software. I could say that the dolphin is the stupidest animal in the world, and nobody would take me seriously. Wayland sucks, if tomorrow x.org didn't exist, I would not continue to use linux. There is no benefit for most users in this thread. I even said I used it on a touch device to get rotation working on my touch tablet, but you ignored that because I have a different preference than you. Every "feature" of wayland sounds like a regression if doublespeaking as regression in features is going forward. >That you don’t understand how dire the situation was becoming is quite telling. It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have. There is a new maintainer, I will continue to use the best tools for myself, which will not be wayland for any non touch computer. Wayland design is... good It's taken over a decade to add a fraction of x.org features, random plugins needed to make it imitate x11, and with less features it still crashes? If it such a required architeture change, why is it making everything worst? What does forward even mean, less features with more crashes? No thanks. If it was so great why does it still suck compared to the so called dire x.org? >It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have. Do you love broken userspace? That's great, choose a compositor that breaks your userspace? My mentality of having robust software is the opposite. Suprise! Nobody wants to use crappier software with less features despite the dire "problems" of x.org, they made a rational choice, which bothers you so much. Why does it matter what I run? You look down on everyone's problem as invalid, calls our mentality wrong, and can't even define what forward is, or why anyone cares, because nothing you say is a benefit matters. Don't be suprised if wayland never gets used or doesn't ever gain traction, other half baked projects like btrfs that are inferior to even older software are not going to be used over better alternatives. You are dishonest about screen tearing being an issue, and calling my custom hotkeys "stealing keystrokes", saying its fundamentally broken when wayland breaks more things, and instead of the project acknowledging user needs, they ignore it and somehow wonder why nobody want to use it. I'll end by saying wayland is fundamentally broken, it has less features, no gains to non graphics or productivity, no benefits and more drawbacks to most users, the wonderful future of the "forward thinking" design that strips useful features and ignores what people like about x.org is beneficial to everyone. No, it is inferior in every way except for gyroscope screen rotation and slightly smoother movements, something that is compartively worthless to the suite of useful x.org features.
- jcelerier 5y ago
  I'd definitely not want to work on a desktop where I can't have an app set up a global hotkey. Do you never record with e.g. OBS, simplescreenrecorder or things like that ?
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    I tried to setup my music controls with dbus but not all the keyboard shortcuts function either for some random reason, so its fundamentally broken if you want to change it still can't do all that x.org does.
  - dijit 5y ago
    Personally I use sway and tell my compositor to bind certain hot keys to certain commands. The downside is that once a command is bound it cannot be reused: so if I wanted to have OBS and simplescreenrecorder that both use “meta+S” to start recording then that’s not possible. The biggest issue I have with wayland is that OBS and screen recording simply do not work, I’m not sure if there are effective workarounds but a consequence of one program not being allowed to spy on another program is that you can’t record the screen.
    - mariusor 5y ago
      > is that OBS and screen recording simply do not work That is not true (at least in sway). You need the xdg-desktop-portal-wlr installed and running for it. Gnome and Plasma have similar desktop portal utilities, but I'm not sure they fully support the screen sharing wayland extension.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  > Redshift -> Gammastep I use a widget that I can scroll my mouse to change the color, does it have it? It doesn't look like it does. >Hot keys are handled by the compositor. Yes I know, I don't like it, I have hotkeys setup in a way that I like, and I don't want to redo it all, I even tried. >Global ones especially. (Apps stealing keystrokes? Sounds like an anti feature) Framing app hotkeys as theft of my input is like saying that my window I am tying in is stealing my keystrokes. If you consider breaking userspace as an benefit, I am confused. It is an optional feature I turned on myself, and you call it keystroke theft, when it was ME that enabled it. Linus Torvald's one rule is that userspace should never be broken. This breaks userspace. > It’s fundamentally difficult or impossible to fix. Or its not broken. >The wayland authors (who are former X11 devs) talked about this extensively. They are still improving it like btrfs, but I would rather stick to something that just works, and so far it has more problems, anti features, needs configuration to be functional, and for what benefit? No battery benefits, no extra functionality in fact less features, breaks workflow, and smoother animations. I also forgot to mention it breaks some of my terminal emulators, every time I try it I have a horrible experience, it breaks things that matter to me, and still does for most people. Even if its "good enough" it will take a long time for more application support, unless I hate myself and resign myself to no configuration GNOME.
hjek 5y ago
> redshift, This was also a showstopper for me. Now, however, in Debian Sid `redshift -m wayland` works fine (although Gnome also has its own > my global hotkeys, They can be configured in your compositor. For those used to using i3, Sway makes this easy by being mostly compatible.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  >They can be configured in your compositor. For those used to using i3, Sway makes this easy by being mostly compatible. Pretty annoying to do this, too bad there's no easy import. A lot of effort for a lot of loss of functionality for smoother animations. Nice to know that redshift is updated thought!

dijit 5y ago

Redshift -> Gammastep Hot keys are handled by the compositor. Global ones especially. (Apps stealing keystrokes? Sounds like an anti feature) Point stands. But I’d rather we work on improving things than just living with X11- it’s like continually adapting token ring networks instead of embracing star topology. It’s fundamentally difficult or impossible to fix. The wayland authors (who are former X11 devs) talked about this extensively.

AshamedCaptain 5y ago
> Apps stealing keystrokes? Sounds like an anti feature Sounds like that right until the user tries to press Alt Tab on a full-screen VNC or VM client.
- dijit 5y ago
  Alt tab not being stolen might be jarring. But I’d rather not have apps overriding the compositor because then I might not be able to escape them. There is some comfort in the universality of many things.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    >Alt tab not being stolen might be jarring. It is jarring to need to remember different keystrokes by the compositor if you use more than one computer, especially if they're not all linux. Why do you think its worth all this pain? Every "feature" of wayland sounds like a regression. I hope someone makes x.org in rust
    - dijit 5y ago
      Sounds like you just don’t like change honestly. Which I could agree with you- I dislike change too, I fight systemd because I don’t see it benefiting me. But this is a bit silly, you keep coming up with rotating surface level complaints but the main reason X11 was replaced was because it was architecturally broken not because they wanted to solve specific issues. That there is no great community around wayland is because of naysayers like yourself. Things are easier to solve than they used to be but people are doing everything they can to avoid using wayland. Things like nvidia forcing people to use X11 have caused distro maintainers to do double the work to maintain backwards compatibility; which means it hasn’t had as much love as X11 over the years either. Normally I would take the stance of “what ever works” but you sound like you’ll do anything to justify not switching. Arguing about creature comforts or that your compositor has more control over your UX than some random program is an absolutely surface level argument when we’re talking about fundamental and required architecture changes for us to go forward with desktop Linux. That you don’t understand how dire the situation was becoming is quite telling. It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have.
      - GhettoComputers 5y ago
        >Sounds like you just don’t like change honestly. I would gladly hop in a better car, if the newer car has less features and is worst, I will not. >That there is no great community around wayland is because of naysayers like yourself. Things are easier to solve than they used to be but people are doing everything they can to avoid using wayland. Rust has plenty of naysayers, as does pipewire. People hate Apple stuff with a passion, but they are all good. Wayland works on GNOME, which is a fact. I even said if its "good enough" it will take a long time for more application support, unless I hate myself and resign myself to no configuration GNOME. The reason it has no community is because it sucks. >Normally I would take the stance of “what ever works” but you sound like you’ll do anything to justify not switching. Arguing about creature comforts or that your compositor has more control over your UX than some random program is an absolutely surface level argument when we’re talking about fundamental and required architecture changes for us to go forward with desktop Linux. You don't get to decide what the direction of desktop linux is, or what people want to do with their open source software. I could say that the dolphin is the stupidest animal in the world, and nobody would take me seriously. Wayland sucks, if tomorrow x.org didn't exist, I would not continue to use linux. There is no benefit for most users in this thread. I even said I used it on a touch device to get rotation working on my touch tablet, but you ignored that because I have a different preference than you. Every "feature" of wayland sounds like a regression if doublespeaking as regression in features is going forward. >That you don’t understand how dire the situation was becoming is quite telling. It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have. There is a new maintainer, I will continue to use the best tools for myself, which will not be wayland for any non touch computer. Wayland design is... good It's taken over a decade to add a fraction of x.org features, random plugins needed to make it imitate x11, and with less features it still crashes? If it such a required architeture change, why is it making everything worst? What does forward even mean, less features with more crashes? No thanks. If it was so great why does it still suck compared to the so called dire x.org? >It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have. Do you love broken userspace? That's great, choose a compositor that breaks your userspace? My mentality of having robust software is the opposite. Suprise! Nobody wants to use crappier software with less features despite the dire "problems" of x.org, they made a rational choice, which bothers you so much. Why does it matter what I run? You look down on everyone's problem as invalid, calls our mentality wrong, and can't even define what forward is, or why anyone cares, because nothing you say is a benefit matters. Don't be suprised if wayland never gets used or doesn't ever gain traction, other half baked projects like btrfs that are inferior to even older software are not going to be used over better alternatives. You are dishonest about screen tearing being an issue, and calling my custom hotkeys "stealing keystrokes", saying its fundamentally broken when wayland breaks more things, and instead of the project acknowledging user needs, they ignore it and somehow wonder why nobody want to use it. I'll end by saying wayland is fundamentally broken, it has less features, no gains to non graphics or productivity, no benefits and more drawbacks to most users, the wonderful future of the "forward thinking" design that strips useful features and ignores what people like about x.org is beneficial to everyone. No, it is inferior in every way except for gyroscope screen rotation and slightly smoother movements, something that is compartively worthless to the suite of useful x.org features.
jcelerier 5y ago
I'd definitely not want to work on a desktop where I can't have an app set up a global hotkey. Do you never record with e.g. OBS, simplescreenrecorder or things like that ?
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  I tried to setup my music controls with dbus but not all the keyboard shortcuts function either for some random reason, so its fundamentally broken if you want to change it still can't do all that x.org does.
- dijit 5y ago
  Personally I use sway and tell my compositor to bind certain hot keys to certain commands. The downside is that once a command is bound it cannot be reused: so if I wanted to have OBS and simplescreenrecorder that both use “meta+S” to start recording then that’s not possible. The biggest issue I have with wayland is that OBS and screen recording simply do not work, I’m not sure if there are effective workarounds but a consequence of one program not being allowed to spy on another program is that you can’t record the screen.
  - mariusor 5y ago
    > is that OBS and screen recording simply do not work That is not true (at least in sway). You need the xdg-desktop-portal-wlr installed and running for it. Gnome and Plasma have similar desktop portal utilities, but I'm not sure they fully support the screen sharing wayland extension.
GhettoComputers 5y ago
> Redshift -> Gammastep I use a widget that I can scroll my mouse to change the color, does it have it? It doesn't look like it does. >Hot keys are handled by the compositor. Yes I know, I don't like it, I have hotkeys setup in a way that I like, and I don't want to redo it all, I even tried. >Global ones especially. (Apps stealing keystrokes? Sounds like an anti feature) Framing app hotkeys as theft of my input is like saying that my window I am tying in is stealing my keystrokes. If you consider breaking userspace as an benefit, I am confused. It is an optional feature I turned on myself, and you call it keystroke theft, when it was ME that enabled it. Linus Torvald's one rule is that userspace should never be broken. This breaks userspace. > It’s fundamentally difficult or impossible to fix. Or its not broken. >The wayland authors (who are former X11 devs) talked about this extensively. They are still improving it like btrfs, but I would rather stick to something that just works, and so far it has more problems, anti features, needs configuration to be functional, and for what benefit? No battery benefits, no extra functionality in fact less features, breaks workflow, and smoother animations. I also forgot to mention it breaks some of my terminal emulators, every time I try it I have a horrible experience, it breaks things that matter to me, and still does for most people. Even if its "good enough" it will take a long time for more application support, unless I hate myself and resign myself to no configuration GNOME.

hjek 5y ago

> redshift, This was also a showstopper for me. Now, however, in Debian Sid `redshift -m wayland` works fine (although Gnome also has its own > my global hotkeys, They can be configured in your compositor. For those used to using i3, Sway makes this easy by being mostly compatible.

GhettoComputers 5y ago
>They can be configured in your compositor. For those used to using i3, Sway makes this easy by being mostly compatible. Pretty annoying to do this, too bad there's no easy import. A lot of effort for a lot of loss of functionality for smoother animations. Nice to know that redshift is updated thought!