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So much FUD daily here against Bitcoin and Web3. Ask yourself, who is the most affected by these 2 technologies existing? Web3 is young still, I'll grant you

So much FUD daily here against Bitcoin and Web3. Ask yourself, who is the most affected by these 2 technologies existing? Web3 is young still, I'll grant you that, but it will eat the world in 3 to 5 years. Bitcoin is already mature and it's the most democratic type of currency/money/property in the world, how can you argue against that? I hear you about the electricity usage, but Bitcoin Lightning will drive down the usage so much that it will become a moot point anyways.

jimjimjim 5y ago
electricity usage... the answer is always blah blah blah WILL or GOING TO. when?
- aeonflux 5y ago
  I hope more countries will make this activity illegal. This is a zero sum game. Wasting energy makes it more expensive. If this madness will go on, everyone will have to pay for it.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> Ask yourself, who is the most affected by these 2 technologies existing? Speculators? Seriously though, can you tell us which Web3 technologies, specifically, are disrupting existing technologies in a way that really benefits the end users instead of speculators? > I hear you about the electricity usage, but Bitcoin Lightning will drive down the usage so much that it will become a moot point anyways. That's not how mining works. Layer 2 networks don't reduce the energy consumption of the Layer 1 network. They still produce 1 block every 10 minutes, and they'll continue mining as long as their costs are lower than the combined block reward and transaction fees. But your comment is a perfect example of the web3 hype: Proponents are convinced that every current problem is basically solved, we just need to wait for the solution to actually arrive and then everyone will see.
- danlugo92 5y ago
  > Seriously though, can you tell us which Web3 technologies, specifically, are disrupting existing technologies in a way that really benefits the end users instead of speculators? Distributed systems where you own the data and there's no single point of failure. > That's not how mining works. Layer 2 networks don't reduce the energy consumption of the Layer 1 network. They still produce 1 block every 10 minutes, and they'll continue mining as long as their costs are lower than the combined block reward and transaction fees. I'm not an expert on the mining mechanics, I might be wrong but not due to the reasons you claim, transaction fees will approach zero as more people move into lightning and block reward will keep getting halved.
  - librish 5y ago
    > Distributed systems where you own the data and there's no single point of failure. That's too abstract, can you be more specific? > I'm not an expert on the mining mechanics, I might be wrong but not due to the reasons you claim, transaction fees will approach zero as more people move into lightning and block reward will keep getting halved. Transaction costs could go down but that doesn't change the incentives for the mining itself very much.
    - danlugo92 5y ago
      > That's too abstract, can you be more specific? Depends on which technology you'll use, one of them is www.gun.eco For the end user just imagine twitter but you can't get banned nor any comment deleted oh and they also cannot read your private messages.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - da-x 5y ago
    > Distributed systems where you own the data and there's no single point of failure. If I encrypt my 1TB of the data I have at home and put the copies on AWS, GCP, and Azure, there's also no single point of failure and I own the data. Still, blockchain is a solution looking for a problem. I can own data without relying on a worldwide self-settling ledger. There's the "shutdown test" for the actual immediate utility value of anything worldwide. If we hypothetically manage to shutdown Bitcoin and all the other blockchains, what would be the overall effect to the world? Some big and small speculators losing assets and no actual loss of value (but less carbon emissions, so maybe increase of value?). On the other hand, shutdown stock exchanges, SWIFT systems, electricity, internet in general - big turmoil.
paulgb 5y ago
> I hear you about the electricity usage, but Bitcoin Lightning will drive down the usage so much that it will become a moot point anyways. This is wrong. ~98% of the incentive that miners get comes from mining new Bitcoin, not transaction fees. That is unaffected by LN, and if LN is widely adopted, will likely even go up (because it is denominated in Bitcoin and LN adoption may drive the price up).
mathnmusic 5y ago
> most democratic type of currency/money/property in the world, how can you argue against that? Accepting any currency that's not a stablecoin, gives power (not just purchasing power) over you to those who bought it really cheap without doing as much labour or as much spending as much capital as the late ones. Bitcoin has been more of a security - like a startup's shares - benefiting early investors at the expense of late ones. It's the opposite of "democratic".
- danlugo92 5y ago
  Please walk me through the steps to buy any US security, say some Apple stock, btw I'm Venezuelan. Here's the steps to buy bitcoin: 1) Create wallet 2) Buy from anyone in the world who wants to sell.
  - haswell 5y ago
    The mechanics of buying have very little to do with market dynamics. It doesn't matter if I can acquire bitcoin telepathically if the market is such that early adopters hold all of the power.
    - danlugo92 5y ago
      That's like saying don't buy Apple stock because you didn't get in in the 80s lol.
      - haswell 5y ago
        This is unrelated to the point I was making. The reality of market dynamics has nothing to do with whether you should or should not buy Apple stock. The point is that the ease of buying something doesn't necessarily change the fundamental concentration of power, which is still concentrated among earlier adopters. You may still choose to invest regardless, and that may be perfectly acceptable.
      - mathnmusic 5y ago
        So we agree that Bitcoin is more like a stock than a currency. Nobody calls Apple stock "most democratic type of currency/money/property in the world". There's a reason why SEC heavily regulates issues of security which promise future upside - regulations that Bitcoin circumvented.
aeonflux 5y ago
Some 25 years ago I've read some funny Windows vs Linux arguments. "Windows is better because there is tons of software (Windows 95) and Windows is better, because it is very stable mature system, with Unix-based kernel (NT)". Somehow people missed they tried to merge two systems into one for the sake of argument. Bitcoin is consuming tons of power for no reason, development is stale. Fluctuations and speculation prevents it from being useful in anyway. Whole premise of any other network and the whole crypto/blockchain is based on a lie about decentralization. Organizations try to sell that lie to unaware people and shift the center of power into their hands. There is no decentralization anywhere, it's not possible and never will be.
- 1ark 5y ago
  Bitcoin is consuming power to secure the integrity of the blockchain, that is the reason. It is not "no reason". If you could suggest another permissionless consensus mechanism, then Bitcoiners are open ears, it has been discussed many times at bitcoin-dev. Bitcoin survived an attack from its own wealthy proponents, miners tried to increase the blocksize for speed, which resulted in the fork Bitcoin Cash. Possibly the number of validators will always outnumber miners. And the code base is not stale. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/master https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/master
  - danlugo92 5y ago
    Disnosaurs gonna dinosaur, bitcoin and web3 will eat the world and they will be left holding their bags. Can't see past their own little bubble.
rvz 5y ago
> Bitcoin is already mature and it's the most democratic type of currency/money/property in the world, how can you argue against that? Am I able to use Bitcoin or Ethereum to pay for my groceries yet? Or do I have to continue to wait 10+ mins for a single transaction to settle whilst overpaying for the fees to make it go faster? If that is 'web3', then you might as well use Apple / Google Pay then.
- danlugo92 5y ago
  > 10+ mins, overpaying for the fees This is what lightning will fix. > If that is 'web3', C'mon, don't argue in bad faith, Bitcoin is not web3 just like AJAX is not web2.0. Web3 can and should be built atop bitcoin lightning, but bitcoin can exist separately.
  - jimjimjim 5y ago
    > This is what lightning will fix. when?
    - 1ark 5y ago
      Correction, fixed. It is already working.
    - danlugo92 5y ago
      It's only a layer 2 to the most secure financial system on the planet, it surely should have taken only 3 months to accomplish! It's still in beta/alpha, it works but it sometimes loses the channels, it doesn't lose your BTC however.
mdoms 5y ago
> Bitcoin is already mature and it's the most democratic type of currency/money/property in the world, how can you argue against that? I wish you bitcoiners could decide if bitcoin is a currency or not.
- danlugo92 5y ago
  Bitcoin is a new thing, new things can exist that didn't exist before, and just because any old terms don't fit it, doesn't stop it from being its own real separate thing.
  - mdoms 5y ago
    Bitcoin is well over a decade old.
    - danlugo92 5y ago
      Fiat money is thousands of years old, your point being?
      - kmlx 5y ago
        not original poster, but bitcoin is not new.

jimjimjim 5y ago

electricity usage... the answer is always blah blah blah WILL or GOING TO. when?

aeonflux 5y ago
I hope more countries will make this activity illegal. This is a zero sum game. Wasting energy makes it more expensive. If this madness will go on, everyone will have to pay for it.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> Ask yourself, who is the most affected by these 2 technologies existing? Speculators? Seriously though, can you tell us which Web3 technologies, specifically, are disrupting existing technologies in a way that really benefits the end users instead of speculators? > I hear you about the electricity usage, but Bitcoin Lightning will drive down the usage so much that it will become a moot point anyways. That's not how mining works. Layer 2 networks don't reduce the energy consumption of the Layer 1 network. They still produce 1 block every 10 minutes, and they'll continue mining as long as their costs are lower than the combined block reward and transaction fees. But your comment is a perfect example of the web3 hype: Proponents are convinced that every current problem is basically solved, we just need to wait for the solution to actually arrive and then everyone will see.

danlugo92 5y ago
> Seriously though, can you tell us which Web3 technologies, specifically, are disrupting existing technologies in a way that really benefits the end users instead of speculators? Distributed systems where you own the data and there's no single point of failure. > That's not how mining works. Layer 2 networks don't reduce the energy consumption of the Layer 1 network. They still produce 1 block every 10 minutes, and they'll continue mining as long as their costs are lower than the combined block reward and transaction fees. I'm not an expert on the mining mechanics, I might be wrong but not due to the reasons you claim, transaction fees will approach zero as more people move into lightning and block reward will keep getting halved.
- librish 5y ago
  > Distributed systems where you own the data and there's no single point of failure. That's too abstract, can you be more specific? > I'm not an expert on the mining mechanics, I might be wrong but not due to the reasons you claim, transaction fees will approach zero as more people move into lightning and block reward will keep getting halved. Transaction costs could go down but that doesn't change the incentives for the mining itself very much.
  - danlugo92 5y ago
    > That's too abstract, can you be more specific? Depends on which technology you'll use, one of them is www.gun.eco For the end user just imagine twitter but you can't get banned nor any comment deleted oh and they also cannot read your private messages.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- da-x 5y ago
  > Distributed systems where you own the data and there's no single point of failure. If I encrypt my 1TB of the data I have at home and put the copies on AWS, GCP, and Azure, there's also no single point of failure and I own the data. Still, blockchain is a solution looking for a problem. I can own data without relying on a worldwide self-settling ledger. There's the "shutdown test" for the actual immediate utility value of anything worldwide. If we hypothetically manage to shutdown Bitcoin and all the other blockchains, what would be the overall effect to the world? Some big and small speculators losing assets and no actual loss of value (but less carbon emissions, so maybe increase of value?). On the other hand, shutdown stock exchanges, SWIFT systems, electricity, internet in general - big turmoil.

paulgb 5y ago

> I hear you about the electricity usage, but Bitcoin Lightning will drive down the usage so much that it will become a moot point anyways. This is wrong. ~98% of the incentive that miners get comes from mining new Bitcoin, not transaction fees. That is unaffected by LN, and if LN is widely adopted, will likely even go up (because it is denominated in Bitcoin and LN adoption may drive the price up).

mathnmusic 5y ago

> most democratic type of currency/money/property in the world, how can you argue against that? Accepting any currency that's not a stablecoin, gives power (not just purchasing power) over you to those who bought it really cheap without doing as much labour or as much spending as much capital as the late ones. Bitcoin has been more of a security - like a startup's shares - benefiting early investors at the expense of late ones. It's the opposite of "democratic".

danlugo92 5y ago
Please walk me through the steps to buy any US security, say some Apple stock, btw I'm Venezuelan. Here's the steps to buy bitcoin: 1) Create wallet 2) Buy from anyone in the world who wants to sell.
- haswell 5y ago
  The mechanics of buying have very little to do with market dynamics. It doesn't matter if I can acquire bitcoin telepathically if the market is such that early adopters hold all of the power.
  - danlugo92 5y ago
    That's like saying don't buy Apple stock because you didn't get in in the 80s lol.
    - haswell 5y ago
      This is unrelated to the point I was making. The reality of market dynamics has nothing to do with whether you should or should not buy Apple stock. The point is that the ease of buying something doesn't necessarily change the fundamental concentration of power, which is still concentrated among earlier adopters. You may still choose to invest regardless, and that may be perfectly acceptable.
    - mathnmusic 5y ago
      So we agree that Bitcoin is more like a stock than a currency. Nobody calls Apple stock "most democratic type of currency/money/property in the world". There's a reason why SEC heavily regulates issues of security which promise future upside - regulations that Bitcoin circumvented.

aeonflux 5y ago

Some 25 years ago I've read some funny Windows vs Linux arguments. "Windows is better because there is tons of software (Windows 95) and Windows is better, because it is very stable mature system, with Unix-based kernel (NT)". Somehow people missed they tried to merge two systems into one for the sake of argument. Bitcoin is consuming tons of power for no reason, development is stale. Fluctuations and speculation prevents it from being useful in anyway. Whole premise of any other network and the whole crypto/blockchain is based on a lie about decentralization. Organizations try to sell that lie to unaware people and shift the center of power into their hands. There is no decentralization anywhere, it's not possible and never will be.

1ark 5y ago
Bitcoin is consuming power to secure the integrity of the blockchain, that is the reason. It is not "no reason". If you could suggest another permissionless consensus mechanism, then Bitcoiners are open ears, it has been discussed many times at bitcoin-dev. Bitcoin survived an attack from its own wealthy proponents, miners tried to increase the blocksize for speed, which resulted in the fork Bitcoin Cash. Possibly the number of validators will always outnumber miners. And the code base is not stale. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/master https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/master
- danlugo92 5y ago
  Disnosaurs gonna dinosaur, bitcoin and web3 will eat the world and they will be left holding their bags. Can't see past their own little bubble.

rvz 5y ago

> Bitcoin is already mature and it's the most democratic type of currency/money/property in the world, how can you argue against that? Am I able to use Bitcoin or Ethereum to pay for my groceries yet? Or do I have to continue to wait 10+ mins for a single transaction to settle whilst overpaying for the fees to make it go faster? If that is 'web3', then you might as well use Apple / Google Pay then.

danlugo92 5y ago
> 10+ mins, overpaying for the fees This is what lightning will fix. > If that is 'web3', C'mon, don't argue in bad faith, Bitcoin is not web3 just like AJAX is not web2.0. Web3 can and should be built atop bitcoin lightning, but bitcoin can exist separately.
- jimjimjim 5y ago
  > This is what lightning will fix. when?
  - 1ark 5y ago
    Correction, fixed. It is already working.
  - danlugo92 5y ago
    It's only a layer 2 to the most secure financial system on the planet, it surely should have taken only 3 months to accomplish! It's still in beta/alpha, it works but it sometimes loses the channels, it doesn't lose your BTC however.

mdoms 5y ago

> Bitcoin is already mature and it's the most democratic type of currency/money/property in the world, how can you argue against that? I wish you bitcoiners could decide if bitcoin is a currency or not.

danlugo92 5y ago
Bitcoin is a new thing, new things can exist that didn't exist before, and just because any old terms don't fit it, doesn't stop it from being its own real separate thing.
- mdoms 5y ago
  Bitcoin is well over a decade old.
  - danlugo92 5y ago
    Fiat money is thousands of years old, your point being?
    - kmlx 5y ago
      not original poster, but bitcoin is not new.