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This seems to be a popular topic on HN but I wonder how much of this is due to semantics. Before I read a story about this I didn't stop to think that people co

This seems to be a popular topic on HN but I wonder how much of this is due to semantics. Before I read a story about this I didn't stop to think that people couldn't picture things in their mind. But now that I've read a few and seen numerous comments on it, I've started to second guess myself. I can imagine a couple gears turning and I would normally have said, "yes I can see it in my mind" but it isn't really like seeing but it seems visual in some way. So maybe what I consider "seeing" in my mind doesn't really count as "seeing" for some because that isn't 100% what it is like? Maybe I'm just so locked into "seeing" things in my mind that I can't imagine how it would work if I didn't.

dougmwne 5y ago
I am on the side that this isn’t semantics and is a real phenomenon. For me, I can hear in my mind very well. I can hear so well that I can occasionally confuse things I’ve hear in my mind’s ear for a real sound (did you just say something?). It very slightly crosses the line into an auditory hallucination. I can hear music so well that I don’t need a radio to listen, just think of the first few seconds of a song and off it goes on the jukebox. My mental images are nowhere near this clear, but they are a kind of “darksight” a seeing and a not seeing, ephemeral but also real and useful for visualization and problem solving.
- basq 5y ago
  I can relate. I'll also get songs viscerally stuck in my head that will play nonstop for several days straight. And not only music, I'll occasionally get stuck images as well, pictures that will sit in my peripheral thoughts for days.
  - dougmwne 5y ago
    That's the first I've heard of eyeworms. Interesting!
pseudalopex 5y ago
I don't think semantics explains cortical excitability and skin conductance differences.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia#Research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia#Research
trompetenaccoun 5y ago
It's not just semantics, but it seems like a hard concept to grasp for those who are not affected. And even those who have it, when they first learn about it.
dhon_ 5y ago
I have aphantasia, although to a lesser degree to the author. Like you I can visualise 3d models in my head, but if I try to recall an image of someone it lacks detail. I can "fill in" detail by recalling facts about that person (hair/eye colour, wrinkles etc) but the image is blurry and details fade quickly. I don't dream very much, though a few times a year I will have a very vivid dream (basically like a video in my head with lots of detail). This makes it very apparent that my normal imagination is lacking detail. It feels a bit like it's a different area of the brain that I don't typically use, and makes me wonder if I could use it more with practice. One test for aphantasia goes something like this: > Imagine a ball sitting on a table. You reach forward and push the ball and it rolls off the table. Now without changing the scene, what colour was the ball? What about the table? For me the ball is smooth an white. The table is something akin to stainless steel. My wife will describe a colourful beach ball on a wooden table with lighting and shadow and describe the room it's in in detail. My scene was in a void as no room was mentioned.
- magnusmundus 5y ago
  This comment is very interesting to me, thank you for sharing. I can relate to a lot of what you said, and I feel the phrasing "normal imagination lacking detail" is perfect. And, (why I decided to respond ->) > For me the ball is smooth an white. The table is something akin to stainless steel. my scene was similar but opposite: Steel/metallic ball on smooth white table, ball falls into a colorless void. The table doesn't even have dimensions really, just has an edge the ball can fall off. I must read more on aphantasia. If you don't mind me asking: did you decide that this is your condition through learning about it, or were you "diagnosed" somehow?
  - JshWright 5y ago
    Not the person you're responding to, but for me it was an AskReddit thread with the prompt of "When you hear an X walked into a bar joke, do you always imagine the same bar?". The idea that someone could imagine a bar (rather than just think about the concept of a bar) was what convinced me that "visualizing" is a real thing and I can't do it. For me the ball test is equally meaningless... I don't understand the premise.
ericsoderstrom 5y ago
I also think it's mostly semantics. Someone who was truly unable to visualize things mentally wouldn't discover it late in life by browsing reddit or whatever, it should be very obvious very early on. Things that would be much harder or impossible for someone truly unable to visualize things: * assemble ikea furniture * pass geometry in grade school * have a dream * masturbate to a sexual fantasy * think back to all the places you might have left your car keys * navigate using a map * play billiards I think people read about aphantasia on the internet, think to themselves "huh when I imagine things it isn't literally identical to watching a movie, I guess I must have aphantasia".

dougmwne 5y ago

I am on the side that this isn’t semantics and is a real phenomenon. For me, I can hear in my mind very well. I can hear so well that I can occasionally confuse things I’ve hear in my mind’s ear for a real sound (did you just say something?). It very slightly crosses the line into an auditory hallucination. I can hear music so well that I don’t need a radio to listen, just think of the first few seconds of a song and off it goes on the jukebox. My mental images are nowhere near this clear, but they are a kind of “darksight” a seeing and a not seeing, ephemeral but also real and useful for visualization and problem solving.

basq 5y ago
I can relate. I'll also get songs viscerally stuck in my head that will play nonstop for several days straight. And not only music, I'll occasionally get stuck images as well, pictures that will sit in my peripheral thoughts for days.
- dougmwne 5y ago
  That's the first I've heard of eyeworms. Interesting!

pseudalopex 5y ago

I don't think semantics explains cortical excitability and skin conductance differences.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia#Research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia#Research

trompetenaccoun 5y ago

It's not just semantics, but it seems like a hard concept to grasp for those who are not affected. And even those who have it, when they first learn about it.

dhon_ 5y ago

I have aphantasia, although to a lesser degree to the author. Like you I can visualise 3d models in my head, but if I try to recall an image of someone it lacks detail. I can "fill in" detail by recalling facts about that person (hair/eye colour, wrinkles etc) but the image is blurry and details fade quickly. I don't dream very much, though a few times a year I will have a very vivid dream (basically like a video in my head with lots of detail). This makes it very apparent that my normal imagination is lacking detail. It feels a bit like it's a different area of the brain that I don't typically use, and makes me wonder if I could use it more with practice. One test for aphantasia goes something like this: > Imagine a ball sitting on a table. You reach forward and push the ball and it rolls off the table. Now without changing the scene, what colour was the ball? What about the table? For me the ball is smooth an white. The table is something akin to stainless steel. My wife will describe a colourful beach ball on a wooden table with lighting and shadow and describe the room it's in in detail. My scene was in a void as no room was mentioned.

magnusmundus 5y ago
This comment is very interesting to me, thank you for sharing. I can relate to a lot of what you said, and I feel the phrasing "normal imagination lacking detail" is perfect. And, (why I decided to respond ->) > For me the ball is smooth an white. The table is something akin to stainless steel. my scene was similar but opposite: Steel/metallic ball on smooth white table, ball falls into a colorless void. The table doesn't even have dimensions really, just has an edge the ball can fall off. I must read more on aphantasia. If you don't mind me asking: did you decide that this is your condition through learning about it, or were you "diagnosed" somehow?
- JshWright 5y ago
  Not the person you're responding to, but for me it was an AskReddit thread with the prompt of "When you hear an X walked into a bar joke, do you always imagine the same bar?". The idea that someone could imagine a bar (rather than just think about the concept of a bar) was what convinced me that "visualizing" is a real thing and I can't do it. For me the ball test is equally meaningless... I don't understand the premise.

ericsoderstrom 5y ago

I also think it's mostly semantics. Someone who was truly unable to visualize things mentally wouldn't discover it late in life by browsing reddit or whatever, it should be very obvious very early on. Things that would be much harder or impossible for someone truly unable to visualize things: * assemble ikea furniture * pass geometry in grade school * have a dream * masturbate to a sexual fantasy * think back to all the places you might have left your car keys * navigate using a map * play billiards I think people read about aphantasia on the internet, think to themselves "huh when I imagine things it isn't literally identical to watching a movie, I guess I must have aphantasia".