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It makes a certain kind of sense. The marketing for these products has always revolved around denigrating software emulators as total, inaccurate trash, which

It makes a certain kind of sense. The marketing for these products has always revolved around denigrating software emulators as total, inaccurate trash, which is completely unfair for a lot of reasons (byuu used to have a great blog post about it but I think it is gone). But of course, you've gotta convince people they "need" to spend hundreds of dollars on emulation when it's available for free otherwise. Turns out they took the message to heart.

willis936 5y ago
The Pocket is a unique product here. Analogue spent effort characterizing and reproducing the color and LCD response profile matrices of the target systems. Having 10x integer scaling allows for very detailed sub-pixel simulation. It's 2022 and we're getting sub-pixels in our sub-pixels. Big whoop, right? My 500 W PC with a 40" OLED panel can do that with ease. Well this can do it in a handheld with 7+ hours of battery.
- friedman23 5y ago
  > Analogue spent effort characterizing and reproducing the color and LCD response profile matrices of the target systems Watch the linus tech tips video, the failed completely in this regard.
  - willis936 5y ago
    I watched the DF video. I don't watch LTT because, while the topics are often interesting and the resources and effort is usually there, the technical chops are not. Linus never developed a culture of putting heads down and making sure it's right with a thorough technical understanding. There are too many options for me to waste time on creators not creating well enough.
    - happy-dude 5y ago
      The LTT video[1] is also from their ShortCircuit channel, their unboxing/ first-impressions channel and should not be confused with their review content. I personally watched the 54 minute in-depth overview from My Life in Gaming[2], and it was clear that LTT/ShortCircuit overlooked or were incorrect in some parts of their initial impressions. EDIT: Specially in regards to the display, they spent no time at all to experiment with the 3 built-in GBA display modes; if they used the modes that replicated the original GBA or GBA SP (AGS-101) screens, they would've had a more color-equivalent appearance. MLiG in their video spent 10+ minutes on display modes alone. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6l5fAbcim0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6l5fAbcim0 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro9QQrTOnT0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro9QQrTOnT0
      - willis936 5y ago
        I watched the MLIG and MVG videos as well. It seems clear that care and engineering was put into the display logic.
      - kllrnohj 5y ago
        > EDIT: Specially in regards to the display, they spent no time at all to experiment with the 3 built-in GBA display modes; if they used the modes that replicated the original GBA or GBA SP (AGS-101) screens, they would've had a more color-equivalent appearance. They did use the GBA SP mode in the comparison: https://youtu.be/h6l5fAbcim0?t=619 https://youtu.be/h6l5fAbcim0?t=619 But the broader point that the channel is specifically unboxing/first-impressions and not a review is definitely accurate.
        happy-dude 5y ago
        > They did use the GBA SP mode in the comparison: https://youtu.be/h6l5fAbcim0?t=619 https://youtu.be/h6l5fAbcim0?t=619 Apologies, missed that for sure. There could still be a multitude of other factors at play (backlight brightness, saturation setting, sharpness setting, etc.) > But the broader point that the channel is specifically unboxing/first-impressions and not a review is definitely accurate. Agreed!
  - exikyut 5y ago
    I didn't really see that in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6l5fAbcim0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6l5fAbcim0, FWIW.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  I find the Anbernic RG351P is excellent and it is not a 500W PC, nor does it have a bad battery life.
  - willis936 5y ago
    That won't be running sub-pixel simulating shaders.
    - marlowe221 5y ago
      It won't... but with a screen size that small how much does that matter??? I own a RG351P and it's an excellent device for the money. Not saying it doesn't matter at all, just that smaller screens seems to make that kind of thing less obvious. To each their own though.
      - willis936 5y ago
        It's a long path to go down. Retro gaming is a boutique cottage industry. It's not at all like audio because it isn't snake oil. People perceive differences in CRTs, sound chips, analog video and audio drivers, etc. Does any of it matter? Does anything matter? I like to tinker and I'm a display junkie. Playing retro games revitalizes me by bringing my headspace back to when I was young. Little me loves these toys. It would be trivial for me to fall down a cynical nihilistic cliff any moment of any day. If a utilitarian wants an explanation, they can have that one.
        emodendroket 5y ago
        People perceive differences in the audio equipment too, right up until you try a double-blind test.
        willis936 5y ago
        The blind tests aren't even the end-all here. The science of human perception limits and characterizing the error are the two fronts to look at. We've long passed recreating what a human ear can hear. We have targets for frequency range, dynamic range, and group delay. Hit those targets and you've won. There is more on the art side of things to advance, namely in simulating directionality, but that isn't what the Tweeter salesman is usually selling you. The imperfections of the audio chips in old consoles are easily audible to humans. If the goal is accurate recreation then assuming the audio chips and driving circuitry is perfect is insufficient. Video recreation is still far below what the Human Visual System can detect. We are not masters of the universe yet.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tombert 5y ago
I remember that post; Byuu conceded that FPGAs will always have an edge latency-wise, but was really annoyed that people acted like FPGA magically made things "more accurate" than something like bsnes, saying FPGAs can still be subject to the same bugs or mistakes as emulators, and are harder to develop. I got the impression that Byuu did not like the Analogue people very much.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  Hardware emulation is also just as impenetrable as the original systems themselves. Software emulation serves as documentation for the hardware and is therefore much better at preserving that knowledge.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    You could look at the Verilog/VHDL/whatever they use, right? Either way the source code has to be available for it to be useful in that way.
    - monocasa 5y ago
      Sticking another emulator under a decompiler is probably at least a couple orders of magnitude easier than looking at an FPGA bitstream. Particularly for the kinds of people who hack on emulators.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  With all the stuff like runahead and frame delay showing up in Retroarch I'm not convinced that the latency thing is even true except if we're confining ourselves to low-powered devices.
  - kllrnohj 5y ago
    runahead is brilliant but it relies on save states being trivially fast to create, which isn't broadly true especially as you get to newer & newer consoles. And strictly speaking needs to be adjusted on a per-game basis as it really depends on the game's internal latency in responding to button presses. But that also doesn't necessarily offset the latency of getting inputs into the emulator in the first place or in getting video frames from the emulator to the display.
awill 5y ago
As someone who has purchased the some analogue hardware, I will say that a reason I bought the mega sg and super nt is less about pixel-perfect accuracy, and more about buying an appliance. As a software engineer, I spend all day dealing with bugs. I have a good gaming PC and a PS5, and spend much more time on my PS5 because it always just works. No tweaking settings, no crashes, no compatibility issues, no incompatibility with my controller. When I get home from a hard day's work, I want to play something on an appliance. Analogue devices are appliances, and emulators (and even the Mister) are not.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  I can understand this mindset perfectly, but it bothers me when it's mixed in with confused stuff about how playing on a cycle-accurate emulator is somehow a perversion of the original experience.
Mindwipe 5y ago
It's also worth noting that while people tend to simplify the discussion down to the US, the legal status of software emulation is... a lot more ropey in some non-US territories. In the UK for example, there is no legal ability to format shift for end users at all, so ultimately you can't really do legal software emulation, at all. (Do not take this as legal advice that hardware emulation is permitted. It's complicated.)

willis936 5y ago

The Pocket is a unique product here. Analogue spent effort characterizing and reproducing the color and LCD response profile matrices of the target systems. Having 10x integer scaling allows for very detailed sub-pixel simulation. It's 2022 and we're getting sub-pixels in our sub-pixels. Big whoop, right? My 500 W PC with a 40" OLED panel can do that with ease. Well this can do it in a handheld with 7+ hours of battery.

friedman23 5y ago
> Analogue spent effort characterizing and reproducing the color and LCD response profile matrices of the target systems Watch the linus tech tips video, the failed completely in this regard.
- willis936 5y ago
  I watched the DF video. I don't watch LTT because, while the topics are often interesting and the resources and effort is usually there, the technical chops are not. Linus never developed a culture of putting heads down and making sure it's right with a thorough technical understanding. There are too many options for me to waste time on creators not creating well enough.
  - happy-dude 5y ago
    The LTT video[1] is also from their ShortCircuit channel, their unboxing/ first-impressions channel and should not be confused with their review content. I personally watched the 54 minute in-depth overview from My Life in Gaming[2], and it was clear that LTT/ShortCircuit overlooked or were incorrect in some parts of their initial impressions. EDIT: Specially in regards to the display, they spent no time at all to experiment with the 3 built-in GBA display modes; if they used the modes that replicated the original GBA or GBA SP (AGS-101) screens, they would've had a more color-equivalent appearance. MLiG in their video spent 10+ minutes on display modes alone. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6l5fAbcim0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6l5fAbcim0 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro9QQrTOnT0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro9QQrTOnT0
    - willis936 5y ago
      I watched the MLIG and MVG videos as well. It seems clear that care and engineering was put into the display logic.
    - kllrnohj 5y ago
      > EDIT: Specially in regards to the display, they spent no time at all to experiment with the 3 built-in GBA display modes; if they used the modes that replicated the original GBA or GBA SP (AGS-101) screens, they would've had a more color-equivalent appearance. They did use the GBA SP mode in the comparison: https://youtu.be/h6l5fAbcim0?t=619 https://youtu.be/h6l5fAbcim0?t=619 But the broader point that the channel is specifically unboxing/first-impressions and not a review is definitely accurate.
      - happy-dude 5y ago
        > They did use the GBA SP mode in the comparison: https://youtu.be/h6l5fAbcim0?t=619 https://youtu.be/h6l5fAbcim0?t=619 Apologies, missed that for sure. There could still be a multitude of other factors at play (backlight brightness, saturation setting, sharpness setting, etc.) > But the broader point that the channel is specifically unboxing/first-impressions and not a review is definitely accurate. Agreed!
- exikyut 5y ago
  I didn't really see that in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6l5fAbcim0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6l5fAbcim0, FWIW.
emodendroket 5y ago
I find the Anbernic RG351P is excellent and it is not a 500W PC, nor does it have a bad battery life.
- willis936 5y ago
  That won't be running sub-pixel simulating shaders.
  - marlowe221 5y ago
    It won't... but with a screen size that small how much does that matter??? I own a RG351P and it's an excellent device for the money. Not saying it doesn't matter at all, just that smaller screens seems to make that kind of thing less obvious. To each their own though.
    - willis936 5y ago
      It's a long path to go down. Retro gaming is a boutique cottage industry. It's not at all like audio because it isn't snake oil. People perceive differences in CRTs, sound chips, analog video and audio drivers, etc. Does any of it matter? Does anything matter? I like to tinker and I'm a display junkie. Playing retro games revitalizes me by bringing my headspace back to when I was young. Little me loves these toys. It would be trivial for me to fall down a cynical nihilistic cliff any moment of any day. If a utilitarian wants an explanation, they can have that one.
      - emodendroket 5y ago
        People perceive differences in the audio equipment too, right up until you try a double-blind test.
        willis936 5y ago
        The blind tests aren't even the end-all here. The science of human perception limits and characterizing the error are the two fronts to look at. We've long passed recreating what a human ear can hear. We have targets for frequency range, dynamic range, and group delay. Hit those targets and you've won. There is more on the art side of things to advance, namely in simulating directionality, but that isn't what the Tweeter salesman is usually selling you. The imperfections of the audio chips in old consoles are easily audible to humans. If the goal is accurate recreation then assuming the audio chips and driving circuitry is perfect is insufficient. Video recreation is still far below what the Human Visual System can detect. We are not masters of the universe yet.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tombert 5y ago

I remember that post; Byuu conceded that FPGAs will always have an edge latency-wise, but was really annoyed that people acted like FPGA magically made things "more accurate" than something like bsnes, saying FPGAs can still be subject to the same bugs or mistakes as emulators, and are harder to develop. I got the impression that Byuu did not like the Analogue people very much.

matheusmoreira 5y ago
Hardware emulation is also just as impenetrable as the original systems themselves. Software emulation serves as documentation for the hardware and is therefore much better at preserving that knowledge.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  You could look at the Verilog/VHDL/whatever they use, right? Either way the source code has to be available for it to be useful in that way.
  - monocasa 5y ago
    Sticking another emulator under a decompiler is probably at least a couple orders of magnitude easier than looking at an FPGA bitstream. Particularly for the kinds of people who hack on emulators.
emodendroket 5y ago
With all the stuff like runahead and frame delay showing up in Retroarch I'm not convinced that the latency thing is even true except if we're confining ourselves to low-powered devices.
- kllrnohj 5y ago
  runahead is brilliant but it relies on save states being trivially fast to create, which isn't broadly true especially as you get to newer & newer consoles. And strictly speaking needs to be adjusted on a per-game basis as it really depends on the game's internal latency in responding to button presses. But that also doesn't necessarily offset the latency of getting inputs into the emulator in the first place or in getting video frames from the emulator to the display.

awill 5y ago

As someone who has purchased the some analogue hardware, I will say that a reason I bought the mega sg and super nt is less about pixel-perfect accuracy, and more about buying an appliance. As a software engineer, I spend all day dealing with bugs. I have a good gaming PC and a PS5, and spend much more time on my PS5 because it always just works. No tweaking settings, no crashes, no compatibility issues, no incompatibility with my controller. When I get home from a hard day's work, I want to play something on an appliance. Analogue devices are appliances, and emulators (and even the Mister) are not.

emodendroket 5y ago
I can understand this mindset perfectly, but it bothers me when it's mixed in with confused stuff about how playing on a cycle-accurate emulator is somehow a perversion of the original experience.

Mindwipe 5y ago

It's also worth noting that while people tend to simplify the discussion down to the US, the legal status of software emulation is... a lot more ropey in some non-US territories. In the UK for example, there is no legal ability to format shift for end users at all, so ultimately you can't really do legal software emulation, at all. (Do not take this as legal advice that hardware emulation is permitted. It's complicated.)