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You’re illustrating my point here. You’re assuming that everyone fully believes and supports anything in the party platform, especially the most extreme element

You’re illustrating my point here. You’re assuming that everyone fully believes and supports anything in the party platform, especially the most extreme elements. This absolutely works both ways and erases people in favor of a label. I talk to a lot of conservatives. While many of them oppose abortion, the issue that sent so many of them over the edge is the lack of willingness of Democrats to agree on a limit. The bulk of opposition is to late term abortions. The lack of reasonable discourse is what sets extremes in place. Another example: Tim Scott’s police reform bill that he thought could move forward with bipartisan support. It didn’t solely because Democratic leadership wanted to ensure that it remained an election issue. We still have no movement on an equivalent bill since Biden took office. Examples like this make it pretty clear that the party leadership doesn’t actually want to resolve issues. Allowing the people who benefit from division to keep doing it will only make things worse.

pjc50 5y ago
> opposition is to late term abortions That's not what's actually happened in legislation though, is it? And there wasn't a huge "late term" abortion problem in the first place, was there? And what are you considering "late term"?
- brightball 5y ago
  3rd trimester
  - pjc50 5y ago
    Again, barely actually happening: https://drjengunter.com/2016/10/27/how-many-late-term-abortions-are-really-performed-in-the-united-states/ https://drjengunter.com/2016/10/27/how-many-late-term-aborti... and used as a pretext for restricting all abortion by dishonest legislators and advocates. To the extent that it does happen it's often in situations where the mother's life is in danger, and it was a particularly nasty death in such situation that _finally_ got Ireland to change its constitution.
ilikecakeandpie 5y ago
> You’re assuming that everyone fully believes and supports anything in the party platform, especially the most extreme elements. I think it doesn't matter what one personally believes if they're enabling a party/company/base that mostly campaigns and executes on items that are opposite of their views. Claiming that one is in favor of abortion until a certain limit, but then supporting a party that says none at all is the way to go is pretty off base, yeah? Also, there's just so much trolling/conversing in bad faith that people don't want to waste their time because they feel it's difficult to have reasonable discourse.
- brightball 5y ago
  > Claiming that one is in favor of abortion until a certain limit, but then supporting a party that says none at all is the way to go is pretty off base, yeah? Sure there are people who opposed it entirely, but the majority of what is actually proposed and passed are more focused on defining a cutoff time when the baby is alive with rights of its own. “Heartbeat Bills” are a good example. There’s a reason you see different laws in different states and it’s because people don’t agree. You’ll always have people who want to eliminate it entirely and you’ll always have people who want no restrictions at all. That will never change. Simply trying to agree on a point in time where a fetus has a right to life where termination is unacceptable though, that’s the problem. And politicians don’t want that to change because the moment that the bulk of the charge goes out of an issue they can’t use it to divide people anymore. If that one issue was off the table, would you reevaluate your party platform? Do you agree with all of it? Do you agree with anything at all on the other side of the isle?
s1artibartfast 5y ago
>I talk to a lot of conservatives. While many of them oppose abortion, the issue that sent so many of them over the edge is the lack of willingness of Democrats to agree on a limit. I have found that the vast majority of "pro-life" republicans and "pro-choice" democrats I have spoken with have literally no substantive difference in opinion on abortion law. It is astounding. Neither group has an actual answer for where the limit should be. Most are uninformed on what the current laws are. Only few outliers are all or nothing, eg life at conception Catholics, or late term abortion radical feminists.

pjc50 5y ago

> opposition is to late term abortions That's not what's actually happened in legislation though, is it? And there wasn't a huge "late term" abortion problem in the first place, was there? And what are you considering "late term"?

brightball 5y ago
3rd trimester
- pjc50 5y ago
  Again, barely actually happening: https://drjengunter.com/2016/10/27/how-many-late-term-abortions-are-really-performed-in-the-united-states/ https://drjengunter.com/2016/10/27/how-many-late-term-aborti... and used as a pretext for restricting all abortion by dishonest legislators and advocates. To the extent that it does happen it's often in situations where the mother's life is in danger, and it was a particularly nasty death in such situation that _finally_ got Ireland to change its constitution.

ilikecakeandpie 5y ago

> You’re assuming that everyone fully believes and supports anything in the party platform, especially the most extreme elements. I think it doesn't matter what one personally believes if they're enabling a party/company/base that mostly campaigns and executes on items that are opposite of their views. Claiming that one is in favor of abortion until a certain limit, but then supporting a party that says none at all is the way to go is pretty off base, yeah? Also, there's just so much trolling/conversing in bad faith that people don't want to waste their time because they feel it's difficult to have reasonable discourse.

brightball 5y ago
> Claiming that one is in favor of abortion until a certain limit, but then supporting a party that says none at all is the way to go is pretty off base, yeah? Sure there are people who opposed it entirely, but the majority of what is actually proposed and passed are more focused on defining a cutoff time when the baby is alive with rights of its own. “Heartbeat Bills” are a good example. There’s a reason you see different laws in different states and it’s because people don’t agree. You’ll always have people who want to eliminate it entirely and you’ll always have people who want no restrictions at all. That will never change. Simply trying to agree on a point in time where a fetus has a right to life where termination is unacceptable though, that’s the problem. And politicians don’t want that to change because the moment that the bulk of the charge goes out of an issue they can’t use it to divide people anymore. If that one issue was off the table, would you reevaluate your party platform? Do you agree with all of it? Do you agree with anything at all on the other side of the isle?

s1artibartfast 5y ago

>I talk to a lot of conservatives. While many of them oppose abortion, the issue that sent so many of them over the edge is the lack of willingness of Democrats to agree on a limit. I have found that the vast majority of "pro-life" republicans and "pro-choice" democrats I have spoken with have literally no substantive difference in opinion on abortion law. It is astounding. Neither group has an actual answer for where the limit should be. Most are uninformed on what the current laws are. Only few outliers are all or nothing, eg life at conception Catholics, or late term abortion radical feminists.