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I always thought "picture in your head" was a figure of speech. I was also really confused how police sketch artists worked. I have zero mental imagery of even

I always thought "picture in your head" was a figure of speech. I was also really confused how police sketch artists worked. I have zero mental imagery of even my wife's face, yet people could somehow describe features of strangers? A lot of things made more sense once I learned about aphantasia. I can play back very long and complex pieces of music in my mind. I can recreate tastes and smells from years ago. But nothing visually. Even my dreams are missing the visual element.

tartoran 5y ago
You seem to have some degree of aphantasia. I do too and have similar experiences with audio and olfactory recall as you do. I had once been robbed and when police showed me a few mugshots I completely forgot what the mugger looked like and my theory is that since I could not entertain the image in my mind’s eye it was very weak and quickly got disturbed by seeing all the other faces in photos. Id be a terrible eye witness I think
riskable 5y ago
Like many mental traits there's a spectrum: Some people (like me) have extreme levels of visualization in our heads. I can picture things I'm imagining in intimate detail which is (probably) why I'm pretty good at turning code into precisely what I'm imagining (e.g. https://gfycat.com/carefulangrybirdofparadise https://gfycat.com/carefulangrybirdofparadise it's a keycap). However, I have such bad long-term memory that I qualified for special needs (mental impairment edition) education (which I did not get enrolled in, for reference). I'm blind in one eye (since birth) so I don't see in true 3D. I thought it was because of this--and my long term memory issues--that I have a hell of a time remembering peoples faces (or names). I am not the guy prosecutors want as a, "he saw the perp's face" witness to a crime... I don't have prosopagnosia (true face blindness) but a whole heck of a lot of people look the same enough to me that I have difficulty telling them apart without hearing their voices (I'm fantastic with voice ID; probably comes naturally when you have trouble with faces haha). Yet I've met people who were also born blind in one eye that are absolutely fantastic at remembering people's faces (and names, obviously). So what I'm getting at is that even though I don't have prosopagnosia I have difficulty with faces. There's got to be a spectrum as with most cognitive measurements. Psychiatrists don't have yes/no charts when they test you for things; It's pretty much all scales from 0-10 (or 200-799 for some reason haha). Just curious (if you read this far): How hard (for you) is a question like this? https://www.123test.com/content/question5.jpeg https://www.123test.com/content/question5.jpeg
- jve 5y ago
  Not parent commenter, but took me maybe 20-30 seconds to come up with the answer with validating by comparing how each character stands to each other. I can't see images in my head. But at least I can try to fold it within my imagination. I can at least rotate it like in 3D computer program. But void is all I "see" in my imagination.
- alecst 5y ago
  Not that it makes me a genius or something, but it's not that hard for me to picture that cube folding. Or to imagine it folded and rotated. I did have to slow down a little to make sure I wasn't making a mistake about the orientation of the characters. What about you?
  - riskable 5y ago
    I'm great at paper folding visualization. I know this because I was given tests like that (by professionals) twice in my life (99th percentile =). For reference, that particular cube folding question is easier than others because you can take the "shortcut" and just pay attention to the orientation of the numbers. The ones that I have to stop and think about the most are the ones with nothing but colors or (minor) shading. For whatever reason I find sides with shapes the easiest to visualize... Even if the shape is the same no matter the orientation (e.g. a circle). Interesting tidbit: I love 3D puzzles and I always try to visualize what it looks like inside (if it's the type where you can't see the inner workings) while I'm figuring it out. I'm almost always way off with what I thought the inside would look like. Different kind of visualization I think. Probably has something to do with the ability to turn physical sensations (i.e. "what you feel") into a mental image.
- boole1854 5y ago
  > Just curious (if you read this far): How hard (for you) is a question like this? https://www.123test.com/content/question5.jpeg https://www.123test.com/content/question5.jpeg Interesting. This question is not hard to solve for me, but I can't solve it by visualizing the cube rotating despite having no trouble visualizing the cube in its initial position. More specifically, when I try to rotate the cube in my mind's eye, to get it "started" rotating, I have to anchor my focus on one particular side of the cube, which I can then rotate correctly. However, this causes me to lose focus on the other sides of the cube, and I can no longer simply look back at them to see how their numbers are oriented after the rotation completes. When you do it, do you keep all sides "in view" at all times? Can you "focus on" one specific side during the rotation then look back at the others and see that they are still correct?
SamBam 5y ago
> I have zero mental imagery of even my wife's face, yet people could somehow describe features of strangers? But could you describe your wife's features? And if so, do you think it's because you're reciting a list of memorized facts ("she has brown hair" etc) or because you're drawing on your memory, even if not visually? Could you describe (at all) any major pieces of art, such as the pose of the Mona Lisa?
- Spinnaker_ 5y ago
  I guess I'm drawing on memory, but not visually. Try closing your eyes. You probably still have a sense of the shape of the room you are in, without actually picturing it right? Like you know how far away the walls are and where the bookshelf is. It's similar with faces. I have some sort of "model" of her face in my head, there's just no visual component. And as I read that over, I realize it's a terrible explanation. I have no clue how to respond usefully.
  - pxc 5y ago
    It's like this for me, too. I have collections of visual facts but they don't cohere into a single visual experience, really
pseudalopex 5y ago
Forensic artists learn how to help people describe more. They can try different shapes until the witness says it looks right. And the successes get more attention than the failures.
watwut 5y ago
> I was also really confused how police sketch artists worked. There are standard "algorithms" how to draw people. You kind of draw standard shapes and then make differences against "standard". Proportions of peoples heads, eyes, noses and other features are surprisingly similar among people. Sketch artists basically learned very well how to draw peoples faces specifically and what are important features people notice.
mercutio2 5y ago
I, too, always thought this was just a figure of speech! I can visualize the geometric outline of things (size, approximate shape), but nothing else. When I realized many people actually can recall a snapshot of things, I realized (part of) how they manage to be so much better at drawing than I am. Truly hard to walk a mile in anyone else's shoes.
myself248 5y ago
This is an interesting point, because while I find it trivial to work with geometric objects in my head (see my other post in this thread), I find it very hard to recall a face as anything other than "a face". I recognize people just fine, but if you sat me down with a sketch artist (or indeed the sketch-artist sub game in Police Quest II), I'm at a loss to say whether someone's eyes are wider or narrower-spaced, whether their mouth is higher or lower, etc. Sometimes I do notice people's noses in the abstract and I may have a describable memory of that, and I think I remember most people's hair shape if not the color. But "A face with a small nose and long hair" is not really much to go on. Smells, too. I smell just fine, and sometimes smells evoke instant memories, but I can't name a smell that I'm smelling. I'm absolutely at a loss to figure out what herbs are missing from food I'm making, or what I've added too much of. I can't describe tastes or smells beyond a very basic level.
forty 5y ago
Interesting that it's different for sound, taste and smell! Do you have an internal narrative? I think I can kind of imagine what it's like not to be able to picture images in my head but I always have a very hard time imagining what people without internal narrative feel like (as I assume it must be to imagine what it's like to have one when you don't)

tartoran 5y ago

You seem to have some degree of aphantasia. I do too and have similar experiences with audio and olfactory recall as you do. I had once been robbed and when police showed me a few mugshots I completely forgot what the mugger looked like and my theory is that since I could not entertain the image in my mind’s eye it was very weak and quickly got disturbed by seeing all the other faces in photos. Id be a terrible eye witness I think

riskable 5y ago

Like many mental traits there's a spectrum: Some people (like me) have extreme levels of visualization in our heads. I can picture things I'm imagining in intimate detail which is (probably) why I'm pretty good at turning code into precisely what I'm imagining (e.g. https://gfycat.com/carefulangrybirdofparadise https://gfycat.com/carefulangrybirdofparadise it's a keycap). However, I have such bad long-term memory that I qualified for special needs (mental impairment edition) education (which I did not get enrolled in, for reference). I'm blind in one eye (since birth) so I don't see in true 3D. I thought it was because of this--and my long term memory issues--that I have a hell of a time remembering peoples faces (or names). I am not the guy prosecutors want as a, "he saw the perp's face" witness to a crime... I don't have prosopagnosia (true face blindness) but a whole heck of a lot of people look the same enough to me that I have difficulty telling them apart without hearing their voices (I'm fantastic with voice ID; probably comes naturally when you have trouble with faces haha). Yet I've met people who were also born blind in one eye that are absolutely fantastic at remembering people's faces (and names, obviously). So what I'm getting at is that even though I don't have prosopagnosia I have difficulty with faces. There's got to be a spectrum as with most cognitive measurements. Psychiatrists don't have yes/no charts when they test you for things; It's pretty much all scales from 0-10 (or 200-799 for some reason haha). Just curious (if you read this far): How hard (for you) is a question like this? https://www.123test.com/content/question5.jpeg https://www.123test.com/content/question5.jpeg

jve 5y ago
Not parent commenter, but took me maybe 20-30 seconds to come up with the answer with validating by comparing how each character stands to each other. I can't see images in my head. But at least I can try to fold it within my imagination. I can at least rotate it like in 3D computer program. But void is all I "see" in my imagination.
alecst 5y ago
Not that it makes me a genius or something, but it's not that hard for me to picture that cube folding. Or to imagine it folded and rotated. I did have to slow down a little to make sure I wasn't making a mistake about the orientation of the characters. What about you?
- riskable 5y ago
  I'm great at paper folding visualization. I know this because I was given tests like that (by professionals) twice in my life (99th percentile =). For reference, that particular cube folding question is easier than others because you can take the "shortcut" and just pay attention to the orientation of the numbers. The ones that I have to stop and think about the most are the ones with nothing but colors or (minor) shading. For whatever reason I find sides with shapes the easiest to visualize... Even if the shape is the same no matter the orientation (e.g. a circle). Interesting tidbit: I love 3D puzzles and I always try to visualize what it looks like inside (if it's the type where you can't see the inner workings) while I'm figuring it out. I'm almost always way off with what I thought the inside would look like. Different kind of visualization I think. Probably has something to do with the ability to turn physical sensations (i.e. "what you feel") into a mental image.
boole1854 5y ago
> Just curious (if you read this far): How hard (for you) is a question like this? https://www.123test.com/content/question5.jpeg https://www.123test.com/content/question5.jpeg Interesting. This question is not hard to solve for me, but I can't solve it by visualizing the cube rotating despite having no trouble visualizing the cube in its initial position. More specifically, when I try to rotate the cube in my mind's eye, to get it "started" rotating, I have to anchor my focus on one particular side of the cube, which I can then rotate correctly. However, this causes me to lose focus on the other sides of the cube, and I can no longer simply look back at them to see how their numbers are oriented after the rotation completes. When you do it, do you keep all sides "in view" at all times? Can you "focus on" one specific side during the rotation then look back at the others and see that they are still correct?

SamBam 5y ago

> I have zero mental imagery of even my wife's face, yet people could somehow describe features of strangers? But could you describe your wife's features? And if so, do you think it's because you're reciting a list of memorized facts ("she has brown hair" etc) or because you're drawing on your memory, even if not visually? Could you describe (at all) any major pieces of art, such as the pose of the Mona Lisa?

Spinnaker_ 5y ago
I guess I'm drawing on memory, but not visually. Try closing your eyes. You probably still have a sense of the shape of the room you are in, without actually picturing it right? Like you know how far away the walls are and where the bookshelf is. It's similar with faces. I have some sort of "model" of her face in my head, there's just no visual component. And as I read that over, I realize it's a terrible explanation. I have no clue how to respond usefully.
- pxc 5y ago
  It's like this for me, too. I have collections of visual facts but they don't cohere into a single visual experience, really

pseudalopex 5y ago

Forensic artists learn how to help people describe more. They can try different shapes until the witness says it looks right. And the successes get more attention than the failures.

watwut 5y ago

> I was also really confused how police sketch artists worked. There are standard "algorithms" how to draw people. You kind of draw standard shapes and then make differences against "standard". Proportions of peoples heads, eyes, noses and other features are surprisingly similar among people. Sketch artists basically learned very well how to draw peoples faces specifically and what are important features people notice.

mercutio2 5y ago

I, too, always thought this was just a figure of speech! I can visualize the geometric outline of things (size, approximate shape), but nothing else. When I realized many people actually can recall a snapshot of things, I realized (part of) how they manage to be so much better at drawing than I am. Truly hard to walk a mile in anyone else's shoes.

myself248 5y ago

This is an interesting point, because while I find it trivial to work with geometric objects in my head (see my other post in this thread), I find it very hard to recall a face as anything other than "a face". I recognize people just fine, but if you sat me down with a sketch artist (or indeed the sketch-artist sub game in Police Quest II), I'm at a loss to say whether someone's eyes are wider or narrower-spaced, whether their mouth is higher or lower, etc. Sometimes I do notice people's noses in the abstract and I may have a describable memory of that, and I think I remember most people's hair shape if not the color. But "A face with a small nose and long hair" is not really much to go on. Smells, too. I smell just fine, and sometimes smells evoke instant memories, but I can't name a smell that I'm smelling. I'm absolutely at a loss to figure out what herbs are missing from food I'm making, or what I've added too much of. I can't describe tastes or smells beyond a very basic level.

forty 5y ago

Interesting that it's different for sound, taste and smell! Do you have an internal narrative? I think I can kind of imagine what it's like not to be able to picture images in my head but I always have a very hard time imagining what people without internal narrative feel like (as I assume it must be to imagine what it's like to have one when you don't)