6 ms·

The Vaccine Moment, part one

23 points by benhoyt 5y ago

stavros 5y ago
> For six months we have been living with vaccine apartheid, with the ‘unvaxxed’ excluded from much of society, but it hasn’t worked. Rates of infection are shooting up as winter arrives I feel that everyone who makes a "oh no, rates are shooting up" argument is being disingenuous for the sake of it. We literally don't care if every single person in the world gets COVID, we only care that they don't have lasting repercussions from it.
- sm4rk0 5y ago
  It's a selfish viewpoint. Those vaccinated and excessively infected also infect unvaccinated (some of them can't be vaccinated even if they want to) and they die? Also, more infections lead to more deaths among vaccinated, too. No vaccine is 100% protection against death outcome.
  - stavros 5y ago
    > Those vaccinated and excessively infected also infect unvaccinated (some of them can't be vaccinated even if they want to) and they die? That would count as a lasting repercussion, wouldn't it?
- headsoup 5y ago
  So... No one who's vaccinated has had lasting repercussions? This logic is definitely going to go somewhere fun.
  - stavros 5y ago
    How on earth would you get that from what I said?
    - headsoup 5y ago
      The implication from your comment is that vaccination is preventing lasting repercussions, but it isn't (only reduces some of it, and no one knows what the long term vaccine repercussions are yet). So what was your point if not that?
      - stavros 5y ago
        All my comment said was "the relevant metric is lasting repercussions, not cases or anything else". I didn't say anything about vaccinations at all. Reading anything else into it is the reader's doing.
        headsoup 5y ago
        Quantify 'lasting repercussions.' What do you even mean here and how is it relevant if not in context of cases or 'anything else?'
        xboxnolifes 5y ago
        It's dead simple. Nobody cares if you get sickness X, they care if you *die or have lasting major effects* due to sickness X. It doesn't matter whether sickness X is COVID, or the flu, or a cold, or literally anything else. If everyone gets some sickness, but nothing happens but a few symptoms for 24 hours, does it make a sound?
        headsoup 5y ago
        Yeah, and my point is the vaccine doesn't prevent this, so what else are you referring to, preventatives?
- tasogare 5y ago
  If that were the case the medias would give the number of deaths, which is the main "lasting repercussion" of covid. Instead they are focusing on the number of cases, to distill fear, which is a devious metrics since the virus has a very very little lethality in the overwhelming part of the population. Even the number of deaths, when not ventilated by age, is actually just fearmongering too. The article is right, most of the West lost its mind, and its more important value, freedom. And the mass is chearfully applauding, spitting on the non-vaccinated. This is very visible for me, living in Japan, where the most dystopian measures (forced vaccination, QR codes, lockdowns, deportation camps) aren't in effect and where the situation is not worse (arguely better) than in any country implementing those. The measures are not about health since a long time and governments are more clearly than ever the enemy of people they are supposed the take care of. I therefore propose to use an experimental vaccine using Guillotinine (a molecule related to quinine) and administer it to a selected test subjects such as Pfizer's and Moderna CEOs, CEO of big TV network as well as a few ministers of health and selected parliamentarians. I bet that covid will cease to be a thing in less than two weeks after injection.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- sm4rk0 5y ago
  Expert(s) think we should care: "There is increasing evidence that vaccinated individuals continue to have a relevant role in transmission." https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02243-1/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
camillomiller 5y ago
The huge problem with this narrative is that it compares a societal exclusion based on a choice (not getting vaxxed) with segregation due to birth characteristics (ethnicity, skin color). I don’t doubt the need to have this discussion about authoritarianism, but the exaggeration of comparing it to nazi times or apartheid (as this line of thinking inevitably implies) is utterly disrespectful to the victims of real regimes.
- sm4rk0 5y ago
  Why do you underrate someone's choices? People were also segregated based on their choices in Nazi Germany. The comparison is still valid because the consequences could be the same if this doesn't stop.
- headsoup 5y ago
  I think one problem here is the assumption the negative choice is 100% wrong, with people only possibly declining through some sort of irrationality. It is a false choice if one answer is discriminated against specifically. If that's OK, then persecuting religion is to be supported just by stating 'but they have a choice to change religion.' Because you don't share a belief, does that make it OK to persecute others for it? Is their own informed view and decision about their health and how it might affect others to be over-ridden to suit yours? Is the truth 100% clear to justify yourself? Obese people have the choice to stop eating, should we ban them from restaurants and medical services because of their 'choice?' Fear makes people mean and willing to harm others for the sake of their own perceived risk avoidance (don't pretend it's all for the 'greater good' with all the other day to day suffering we contribute to at the cost of others) without a second thought.
  - camillomiller 5y ago
    Nope. And nobody is banning novaxxed from getting medical care for free, for example, in Austria and Germany. And nobody ever will, because that’s unconstitutional. Yet, every single European constitution allows a degree of authority to the state, when the impositions are about catering to the safety and well being of the majority of society. I agree that vaccines are not the magic wand some science zealots would like them to be. Put what’s even clearer, is how the lack of vaccination affects and strains the national medical systems. Every decision has be taken with that as a beacon. Novaxxers here aren’t simply free thinkers. They’re totalitarians attacking scientific proof, wishing that their magical thinking could be taken as reference by policymaking. They’re above all extreme individualists who put their personal choice in front of everyone else’s well being, out of principle. They are, in other words, anti-social elements, that are willing to risk the well being of their fellow citizens for a libertarian choice often rooted in misconception and misinformation.
gherkinnn 5y ago
I got vaccinated and would do it again. I wear masks. And I disagree with most people's reason not to do so. But then I look around and see that people who made the same choices as me started hurling turds at people who didn't. Questioning their intelligence. Calling them evil and stupid. Cheering on horrific measures. Now the mask isn't as much a preventative measure as it is a tribal marker. And I am disgusted.
- hagbard_c 5y ago
  Speak up, let your voice be heard. Tell those self-righteous people who made the same choices as you that they are the ones in the wrong, not so much on their decision to get vaccinated or wear masks but for deriding others for their choice not to do so. I'm vaccinated because I had to to be allowed to travel, otherwise I would have waited this one out just like I waited out the previous pandemic vaccine - "Pandemrix", the vaccine against the swine flu which turned out to cause narcolepsy, especially in children [1,2,3]. I could join the choir but decided to tell them off. This gets me labelled as "anti-vaxxer" but I'll just sew that badge on my uniform where it can join all the other labels thrown at dissenters. I know the truth, after all. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcoleps... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6413474/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6413474/ [3] https://www.narcolepsy.org.uk/resources/pandemrix-narcolepsy https://www.narcolepsy.org.uk/resources/pandemrix-narcolepsy
- kcplate 5y ago
  To a degree I am in this same headspace. Vaccinated and boosted, I wear a mask (when and where required in places I want to patronize). However everything I have done or do has been because it’s been my personal choice to do so based on my understanding of the risk I have from this virus. It’s entirely a selfish motivation. However, I am not willing to criticize the decisions others have made that are different than mine, and am disgusted at the behavior of zealots who do so. We are not arguing about long established scientific norms. This is a novel virus AND a novel vaccine. Skepticism should be expected.
stefs 5y ago
this irks me greatly, i only read the first few paragraphs don't agree with it much. some random observations from an austrian: * it's known for quite some time that the vaccine doesn't reduce the infection numbers that much (for various reasons); the effect is now measured by the numbers of hospitalizations. almost all of those in intensive care are not vaccinated (the rest are suffering from impaired immune systems). non-icu patient rate is mostly unvaccinated, especially if a 70% vaccination rate is considered. ireland population: ~5 mil, deaths per day in december 21: between 7 and 12 austrian population: ~9 mil, deaths per day in december 21: between 55 and 60 see https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/austria?country=AUT~IRL#what-is-the-daily-number-of-confirmed-deaths https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/austria?count... * the problem in austria, as in many other affected countries, is the collapse of the public health system due to ICU load and staff attrition. remember, it's not about the beds, it's about the staff. we've got a burnout epidemic which is worsened by unmasked protestors in front of the hospitals while nurses are already completely exhausted. there have been unofficial reports of triage, bodies of the deceased stored in hallways. there are abandoned hospital stations because the whole staff has been relegated to the covid stations. non-essential procedures are delayed delayed indefinitely. * the bodily autonomy only applies if it only affects you and not the people around it. i can't bring the bodily autonomy principle to justify smoking cigarettes in a day care or driving on public streets under the influence. the problem with bodily autonomy and vaccines is such an idiotic one, thanks to the morons that misinterpreted the financial fraudster andrew wakefield. i know it's a bit more complicated than that, but vaccinations rarely were an issue at all, when, say, you were to travel to an african or south easian holiday destination. it only started to be a problem when it became politicized. * there have been rare but rising cases of violence, but i can't recall a single one which wasn't by anti-vaxxers against security or hospital personnel. it's actually a huge problem - many doctors stopped vaccinating people because they've been harassed and threatened by irate anti-vaxxers. there are cases of small town politicians being threatened by the mob ("drag him out!"). * there are large scale protests all over the country. almost all of them are organized by right-wing parties and/or neo-nazi groups (there's significant overlap). the FPÖ (the right wing party) used to be pro mandatory vaccinations until very recently, when the policy would affect mostly immigrants. some of those protests are staged in front of hospitals, hindering ambulances and intimidating staff. * measures like extended lockdowns for the unvaccinated have failed because they were simply ignored, either with fake certificates or just hoping not to get caught. i used to be against mandatory vaccination and would have preferred a different solution: ranking unvaxxed-by-choice patients lower than vaccinated patients. this proposal has been rejected (for multiple reasons). tbh i'm not optimistic. with omicron approaching the situation in the hospitals will be even more catastrophic than it ever was. i just hope that there wont be any medical emergencies in my family. so right now we have 50 deaths a day even though every patient gets a hospital / ICU bed. with omikron those numbers are going to explode. other than that, i feel like i've read every single of his arguments repelled a thousand times by scientists. lower numbers in africa can be explained by a lower average age. omikron less severe than expected because of high levels of natural antibodies from previous infections, etc. etc. etc.
drcongo 5y ago
The worst thing about this article is that the title suggests he's going to write even more uninformed nonsense.
NathanAlexander 5y ago
Looking at some of the provided links in the article damages the credibility of the article. Some of them are clear misrepresentations of the links. A couple of examples are: > an active state/media campaign against early treatment of a disease This contains a link to an article with a headline of "FDA asks people to stop taking animal dewormer to treat COVID-19". It is fine if the author disagrees with the FDA decision on the effectiveness of the treatment but this is not what they say about the link. > It is the fact that these vaccines, whatever their efficacy in other areas, do not prevent transmission of the virus. This links to an article about a study which found that vaccinated people who catch the virus are equally likely to infect other people as unvaccinated people who catch the virus. Reading further in the article it states "a fully vaccinated contact has a 25% chance of catching the virus from an infected household member while an unvaccinated contact has a 38% chance of becoming infected". So the overall effect of the vaccine clearly does reduce transmission by reducing the chance of being infected, and without being infected you cannot pass on the virus. This makes it feel like the author is more interested in pushing an agenda than representing things in an accurate way.
mostertoaster 5y ago
He said, “I am ‘the voice of one crying in the wilderness, “Make straight the way of the Lord,” The flagged voice in the wilderness. The advent is near. As it was all those years ago. Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

23 points by benhoyt 5y ago

> For six months we have been living with vaccine apartheid, with the ‘unvaxxed’ excluded from much of society, but it hasn’t worked. Rates of infection are shooting up as winter arrives I feel that everyone who makes a "oh no, rates are shooting up" argument is being disingenuous for the sake of it. We literally don't care if every single person in the world gets COVID, we only care that they don't have lasting repercussions from it.

sm4rk0 5y ago
It's a selfish viewpoint. Those vaccinated and excessively infected also infect unvaccinated (some of them can't be vaccinated even if they want to) and they die? Also, more infections lead to more deaths among vaccinated, too. No vaccine is 100% protection against death outcome.
- stavros 5y ago
  > Those vaccinated and excessively infected also infect unvaccinated (some of them can't be vaccinated even if they want to) and they die? That would count as a lasting repercussion, wouldn't it?
headsoup 5y ago
So... No one who's vaccinated has had lasting repercussions? This logic is definitely going to go somewhere fun.
- stavros 5y ago
  How on earth would you get that from what I said?
  - headsoup 5y ago
    The implication from your comment is that vaccination is preventing lasting repercussions, but it isn't (only reduces some of it, and no one knows what the long term vaccine repercussions are yet). So what was your point if not that?
    - stavros 5y ago
      All my comment said was "the relevant metric is lasting repercussions, not cases or anything else". I didn't say anything about vaccinations at all. Reading anything else into it is the reader's doing.
      - headsoup 5y ago
        Quantify 'lasting repercussions.' What do you even mean here and how is it relevant if not in context of cases or 'anything else?'
        xboxnolifes 5y ago
        It's dead simple. Nobody cares if you get sickness X, they care if you *die or have lasting major effects* due to sickness X. It doesn't matter whether sickness X is COVID, or the flu, or a cold, or literally anything else. If everyone gets some sickness, but nothing happens but a few symptoms for 24 hours, does it make a sound?
        headsoup 5y ago
        Yeah, and my point is the vaccine doesn't prevent this, so what else are you referring to, preventatives?
tasogare 5y ago
If that were the case the medias would give the number of deaths, which is the main "lasting repercussion" of covid. Instead they are focusing on the number of cases, to distill fear, which is a devious metrics since the virus has a very very little lethality in the overwhelming part of the population. Even the number of deaths, when not ventilated by age, is actually just fearmongering too. The article is right, most of the West lost its mind, and its more important value, freedom. And the mass is chearfully applauding, spitting on the non-vaccinated. This is very visible for me, living in Japan, where the most dystopian measures (forced vaccination, QR codes, lockdowns, deportation camps) aren't in effect and where the situation is not worse (arguely better) than in any country implementing those. The measures are not about health since a long time and governments are more clearly than ever the enemy of people they are supposed the take care of. I therefore propose to use an experimental vaccine using Guillotinine (a molecule related to quinine) and administer it to a selected test subjects such as Pfizer's and Moderna CEOs, CEO of big TV network as well as a few ministers of health and selected parliamentarians. I bet that covid will cease to be a thing in less than two weeks after injection.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sm4rk0 5y ago
Expert(s) think we should care: "There is increasing evidence that vaccinated individuals continue to have a relevant role in transmission." https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02243-1/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

camillomiller 5y ago

The huge problem with this narrative is that it compares a societal exclusion based on a choice (not getting vaxxed) with segregation due to birth characteristics (ethnicity, skin color). I don’t doubt the need to have this discussion about authoritarianism, but the exaggeration of comparing it to nazi times or apartheid (as this line of thinking inevitably implies) is utterly disrespectful to the victims of real regimes.

sm4rk0 5y ago
Why do you underrate someone's choices? People were also segregated based on their choices in Nazi Germany. The comparison is still valid because the consequences could be the same if this doesn't stop.
headsoup 5y ago
I think one problem here is the assumption the negative choice is 100% wrong, with people only possibly declining through some sort of irrationality. It is a false choice if one answer is discriminated against specifically. If that's OK, then persecuting religion is to be supported just by stating 'but they have a choice to change religion.' Because you don't share a belief, does that make it OK to persecute others for it? Is their own informed view and decision about their health and how it might affect others to be over-ridden to suit yours? Is the truth 100% clear to justify yourself? Obese people have the choice to stop eating, should we ban them from restaurants and medical services because of their 'choice?' Fear makes people mean and willing to harm others for the sake of their own perceived risk avoidance (don't pretend it's all for the 'greater good' with all the other day to day suffering we contribute to at the cost of others) without a second thought.
- camillomiller 5y ago
  Nope. And nobody is banning novaxxed from getting medical care for free, for example, in Austria and Germany. And nobody ever will, because that’s unconstitutional. Yet, every single European constitution allows a degree of authority to the state, when the impositions are about catering to the safety and well being of the majority of society. I agree that vaccines are not the magic wand some science zealots would like them to be. Put what’s even clearer, is how the lack of vaccination affects and strains the national medical systems. Every decision has be taken with that as a beacon. Novaxxers here aren’t simply free thinkers. They’re totalitarians attacking scientific proof, wishing that their magical thinking could be taken as reference by policymaking. They’re above all extreme individualists who put their personal choice in front of everyone else’s well being, out of principle. They are, in other words, anti-social elements, that are willing to risk the well being of their fellow citizens for a libertarian choice often rooted in misconception and misinformation.

gherkinnn 5y ago

I got vaccinated and would do it again. I wear masks. And I disagree with most people's reason not to do so. But then I look around and see that people who made the same choices as me started hurling turds at people who didn't. Questioning their intelligence. Calling them evil and stupid. Cheering on horrific measures. Now the mask isn't as much a preventative measure as it is a tribal marker. And I am disgusted.

hagbard_c 5y ago
Speak up, let your voice be heard. Tell those self-righteous people who made the same choices as you that they are the ones in the wrong, not so much on their decision to get vaccinated or wear masks but for deriding others for their choice not to do so. I'm vaccinated because I had to to be allowed to travel, otherwise I would have waited this one out just like I waited out the previous pandemic vaccine - "Pandemrix", the vaccine against the swine flu which turned out to cause narcolepsy, especially in children [1,2,3]. I could join the choir but decided to tell them off. This gets me labelled as "anti-vaxxer" but I'll just sew that badge on my uniform where it can join all the other labels thrown at dissenters. I know the truth, after all. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcoleps... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6413474/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6413474/ [3] https://www.narcolepsy.org.uk/resources/pandemrix-narcolepsy https://www.narcolepsy.org.uk/resources/pandemrix-narcolepsy
kcplate 5y ago
To a degree I am in this same headspace. Vaccinated and boosted, I wear a mask (when and where required in places I want to patronize). However everything I have done or do has been because it’s been my personal choice to do so based on my understanding of the risk I have from this virus. It’s entirely a selfish motivation. However, I am not willing to criticize the decisions others have made that are different than mine, and am disgusted at the behavior of zealots who do so. We are not arguing about long established scientific norms. This is a novel virus AND a novel vaccine. Skepticism should be expected.

stefs 5y ago

this irks me greatly, i only read the first few paragraphs don't agree with it much. some random observations from an austrian: * it's known for quite some time that the vaccine doesn't reduce the infection numbers that much (for various reasons); the effect is now measured by the numbers of hospitalizations. almost all of those in intensive care are not vaccinated (the rest are suffering from impaired immune systems). non-icu patient rate is mostly unvaccinated, especially if a 70% vaccination rate is considered. ireland population: ~5 mil, deaths per day in december 21: between 7 and 12 austrian population: ~9 mil, deaths per day in december 21: between 55 and 60 see https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/austria?country=AUT~IRL#what-is-the-daily-number-of-confirmed-deaths https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/austria?count... * the problem in austria, as in many other affected countries, is the collapse of the public health system due to ICU load and staff attrition. remember, it's not about the beds, it's about the staff. we've got a burnout epidemic which is worsened by unmasked protestors in front of the hospitals while nurses are already completely exhausted. there have been unofficial reports of triage, bodies of the deceased stored in hallways. there are abandoned hospital stations because the whole staff has been relegated to the covid stations. non-essential procedures are delayed delayed indefinitely. * the bodily autonomy only applies if it only affects you and not the people around it. i can't bring the bodily autonomy principle to justify smoking cigarettes in a day care or driving on public streets under the influence. the problem with bodily autonomy and vaccines is such an idiotic one, thanks to the morons that misinterpreted the financial fraudster andrew wakefield. i know it's a bit more complicated than that, but vaccinations rarely were an issue at all, when, say, you were to travel to an african or south easian holiday destination. it only started to be a problem when it became politicized. * there have been rare but rising cases of violence, but i can't recall a single one which wasn't by anti-vaxxers against security or hospital personnel. it's actually a huge problem - many doctors stopped vaccinating people because they've been harassed and threatened by irate anti-vaxxers. there are cases of small town politicians being threatened by the mob ("drag him out!"). * there are large scale protests all over the country. almost all of them are organized by right-wing parties and/or neo-nazi groups (there's significant overlap). the FPÖ (the right wing party) used to be pro mandatory vaccinations until very recently, when the policy would affect mostly immigrants. some of those protests are staged in front of hospitals, hindering ambulances and intimidating staff. * measures like extended lockdowns for the unvaccinated have failed because they were simply ignored, either with fake certificates or just hoping not to get caught. i used to be against mandatory vaccination and would have preferred a different solution: ranking unvaxxed-by-choice patients lower than vaccinated patients. this proposal has been rejected (for multiple reasons). tbh i'm not optimistic. with omicron approaching the situation in the hospitals will be even more catastrophic than it ever was. i just hope that there wont be any medical emergencies in my family. so right now we have 50 deaths a day even though every patient gets a hospital / ICU bed. with omikron those numbers are going to explode. other than that, i feel like i've read every single of his arguments repelled a thousand times by scientists. lower numbers in africa can be explained by a lower average age. omikron less severe than expected because of high levels of natural antibodies from previous infections, etc. etc. etc.

drcongo 5y ago

The worst thing about this article is that the title suggests he's going to write even more uninformed nonsense.

NathanAlexander 5y ago

Looking at some of the provided links in the article damages the credibility of the article. Some of them are clear misrepresentations of the links. A couple of examples are: > an active state/media campaign against early treatment of a disease This contains a link to an article with a headline of "FDA asks people to stop taking animal dewormer to treat COVID-19". It is fine if the author disagrees with the FDA decision on the effectiveness of the treatment but this is not what they say about the link. > It is the fact that these vaccines, whatever their efficacy in other areas, do not prevent transmission of the virus. This links to an article about a study which found that vaccinated people who catch the virus are equally likely to infect other people as unvaccinated people who catch the virus. Reading further in the article it states "a fully vaccinated contact has a 25% chance of catching the virus from an infected household member while an unvaccinated contact has a 38% chance of becoming infected". So the overall effect of the vaccine clearly does reduce transmission by reducing the chance of being infected, and without being infected you cannot pass on the virus. This makes it feel like the author is more interested in pushing an agenda than representing things in an accurate way.

mostertoaster 5y ago

He said, “I am ‘the voice of one crying in the wilderness, “Make straight the way of the Lord,” The flagged voice in the wilderness. The advent is near. As it was all those years ago. Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.