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If Diogenes was doing an act he was really into it. He famously told Alexander the Great to fuck off and stop blocking the light (which leads me to think that

by bambax 5y ago

If Diogenes was doing an act he was really into it. He famously told Alexander the Great to fuck off and stop blocking the light (which leads me to think that the ultimate "fuck you money" is to have no money at all, and not want any). He would also walk around the market and masturbate in public, which the Athenians found disgraceful. When challenged about this he would reply: how happy would we be if we were able to suppress hunger simply by rubbing our belly. I really love this character.

marginalia_nu 5y ago
A lot of this is probably apocryphal. He was such an outrageous character that people seem to have used him as a trope when telling jokes, he was a living fictional character and seems to have enjoyed fanning on the stories about him. This is sort of central to the accusation too, he seems to have really reveled in his infamy and no doubt encouraged these stories. Like the exchange with Alexander, which is questionable if it ever happened or whether it's just an anecdote that went "viral". A tale of how the world's most powerful general hashing words with the world's most impudent homeless man, it's both entertaining and inspires the imagination. A bit like a superman vs batman fight.
netcan 5y ago
So, assuming this isn't just a rumour spread by Diogenes himself.... Diogenes' barrel was in the middle of Corinth, where he could be seen & talked about. Where he could be vocally cynical of other people, etc. If Diogenes really wanted to be left alone, fill his belly and nap... he could have done this easily. Many Greek well-to-dos in his place did just retired to a quiet country life where no one bothers you. He didn't, wanting to be seen not giving a fuck. I wonder if like modern counter cultural figures, his fan base tended to be late teens?
- bambax 5y ago
  > Many Greek well-to-dos in his place Well if he had zero money he couldn't retire to a quiet country life... That's why homeless people today do not choose to live in nice places in the countryside but instead sleep on the pavement in cities. It's much less pleasant but you starve less in the city. Also, maybe he wanted to tell other people they were fools, not just "wanting to be seen not giving a fuck". Sure, if you want to lecture people about themselves then you give a fuck about at least that, but it's different than simply trying to be the center of attention. I really think Diogenes was a philosopher (Diogenes the character -- this is true whether he actually existed or not): he had a point of view that he wanted to share.
  - netcan 5y ago
    Sure, yes... Diogenes (the character) was a famous, upper class dude. Lifelong poverty wasn't a trap he couldn't escape. Also I didn't mean to be too harsh. The "can't wait to tell you how little I care" trope is one we can't escape even in modern dissident youth culture. Hippies, punk, goth, emo... every generation reinvents it and it's artistically/culturally rich ground. That said, the Diogenes character definitely does seem like he enjoyed being the centre of attention. It's like Marilyn Manson going on daytime talk shows in the 90s to tell normies that he doesn't care what they think. There's obviously a falsity in there, somewhere. It got my attention though, as a teen, and I still listen to th albums. The point of the barrel is to be seen in a barrel, at the very least to demonstrate the philosophical reasoning for the barrel. There are plenty of people who genuinely don't care what the people of Corinth think, say or do. The don't choose to spend their time in the public square debating.
    - DarylZero 5y ago
      Why would Marilyn Manson care what normies think? This "care what you think" phrasing I think is really deceptive. Because the active issue is whether you conform to group norms or refuse to do so. If someone refuses to conform to a group, then demonstrably they don't care enough about the benefits of group inclusion to comply with the group demands. If someone quits their job, they may in _some_ sense "care what the boss thinks," but there is a much more important sense in which they don't (while those who do not quit, do). I guess people may be "loud" about their refusal, in various ways, because they don't want a refusal to conform to be mistaken for an inability to perform. Much like the person who is quitting does not want to be perceived as having been fired. Again, that is a very different kind of concern than the person who is trying to keep their job.
      - orasis 5y ago
        To fight against something is to be controlled by the thing you’re fighting against. “Freedom from” is not the same as “freedom to”.
      - netcan 5y ago
the_af 5y ago
> He famously told Alexander the Great to fuck off and stop blocking the light (which leads me to think that the ultimate "fuck you money" is to have no money at all, and not want any). Many historians think this anecdote is apocryphal, giving credence to the opinion that Diogenes' act was... an act.

by bambax 5y ago

marginalia_nu 5y ago

A lot of this is probably apocryphal. He was such an outrageous character that people seem to have used him as a trope when telling jokes, he was a living fictional character and seems to have enjoyed fanning on the stories about him. This is sort of central to the accusation too, he seems to have really reveled in his infamy and no doubt encouraged these stories. Like the exchange with Alexander, which is questionable if it ever happened or whether it's just an anecdote that went "viral". A tale of how the world's most powerful general hashing words with the world's most impudent homeless man, it's both entertaining and inspires the imagination. A bit like a superman vs batman fight.

netcan 5y ago

So, assuming this isn't just a rumour spread by Diogenes himself.... Diogenes' barrel was in the middle of Corinth, where he could be seen & talked about. Where he could be vocally cynical of other people, etc. If Diogenes really wanted to be left alone, fill his belly and nap... he could have done this easily. Many Greek well-to-dos in his place did just retired to a quiet country life where no one bothers you. He didn't, wanting to be seen not giving a fuck. I wonder if like modern counter cultural figures, his fan base tended to be late teens?

bambax 5y ago
> Many Greek well-to-dos in his place Well if he had zero money he couldn't retire to a quiet country life... That's why homeless people today do not choose to live in nice places in the countryside but instead sleep on the pavement in cities. It's much less pleasant but you starve less in the city. Also, maybe he wanted to tell other people they were fools, not just "wanting to be seen not giving a fuck". Sure, if you want to lecture people about themselves then you give a fuck about at least that, but it's different than simply trying to be the center of attention. I really think Diogenes was a philosopher (Diogenes the character -- this is true whether he actually existed or not): he had a point of view that he wanted to share.
- netcan 5y ago
  Sure, yes... Diogenes (the character) was a famous, upper class dude. Lifelong poverty wasn't a trap he couldn't escape. Also I didn't mean to be too harsh. The "can't wait to tell you how little I care" trope is one we can't escape even in modern dissident youth culture. Hippies, punk, goth, emo... every generation reinvents it and it's artistically/culturally rich ground. That said, the Diogenes character definitely does seem like he enjoyed being the centre of attention. It's like Marilyn Manson going on daytime talk shows in the 90s to tell normies that he doesn't care what they think. There's obviously a falsity in there, somewhere. It got my attention though, as a teen, and I still listen to th albums. The point of the barrel is to be seen in a barrel, at the very least to demonstrate the philosophical reasoning for the barrel. There are plenty of people who genuinely don't care what the people of Corinth think, say or do. The don't choose to spend their time in the public square debating.
  - DarylZero 5y ago
    Why would Marilyn Manson care what normies think? This "care what you think" phrasing I think is really deceptive. Because the active issue is whether you conform to group norms or refuse to do so. If someone refuses to conform to a group, then demonstrably they don't care enough about the benefits of group inclusion to comply with the group demands. If someone quits their job, they may in _some_ sense "care what the boss thinks," but there is a much more important sense in which they don't (while those who do not quit, do). I guess people may be "loud" about their refusal, in various ways, because they don't want a refusal to conform to be mistaken for an inability to perform. Much like the person who is quitting does not want to be perceived as having been fired. Again, that is a very different kind of concern than the person who is trying to keep their job.
    - orasis 5y ago
      To fight against something is to be controlled by the thing you’re fighting against. “Freedom from” is not the same as “freedom to”.
    - netcan 5y ago

the_af 5y ago

> He famously told Alexander the Great to fuck off and stop blocking the light (which leads me to think that the ultimate "fuck you money" is to have no money at all, and not want any). Many historians think this anecdote is apocryphal, giving credence to the opinion that Diogenes' act was... an act.