4 ms·

And make outdoor cats illegal. An unpopular opinion no doubt. But from nature photographers to veterinarians, the outdoor cat is not good for anyone, including

by cmurf 5y ago

And make outdoor cats illegal. An unpopular opinion no doubt. But from nature photographers to veterinarians, the outdoor cat is not good for anyone, including the cat.

digitaltrees 5y ago
Our door cats have existed for millennia. Pesticides have not. I don’t think outdoor cats are the problem. Pesticides have killed most of the bug biomass in the last several decades and now birds are being affected.
- drran 5y ago
  I cannot understand why DDT is forbidden, but 10000x more powerful insecticides are not forbidden. WTF? Birds are dropping from the sky in Spring, because they have nothing to eat, because bugs are gone while seeds are not ready yet. Also, air pollution makes them weak. Birds are much more sensitive to air pollution and CO2 level, because they breathe at much higher rate while they have much lower mass than land animals.
Spooky23 5y ago
I blame online communities for this. Cat ladies are insane and organized now. In my city, there’s a group distributing shelters and placing them in various outdoor areas to keep feral cats alive over the winter. They are as nutty as the pigeon feeders, except the cats kill everything in sight.
- pirate787 5y ago
  We have a group like this, which feeds a couple dozen feral cats on "Kitty Cat Lane." Of course there is science behind the insanity -- toxoplasmosis infections from the cats they love.
  - Spooky23 5y ago
    Our local Nextdoor exploded when some particularly nutty cat vigilante started stealing cats and spaying them. I think as society sprawls out and folks have fewer kids, this stuff gets escalated.
    - jollybean 5y ago
      These comments are disturbingly out of touch. 'Neuter and Release' programs are common, supported and sanctioned by animal shelters, usually local vets provide their services for free, and the point is to provide basic medical for the animals while at the same time trying to control excess populations. Calling them 'Nutty cat lady vigilantes' would be like calling people 100 years ago providing shelter for abused women 'Marriage Wreckers'.
      - Spooky23 5y ago
        This particular group of self-described activists were running a squeegee guy scam with cats. They were stealing pets and shaking down the owners for cash.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    Enough with the petty, denigrating attacks people helping mostly harmless animals, which is a generally good thing. These rescuers/helpers run 'neuter and release' programs and are keen on having population control, not increasing the number of rogue cats.
    - thatguy0900 5y ago
      Mostly harmless to you... What a strange thing to call what is effectively an apex suburban predator that is known to kill for fun with no intention of eating.
      - jollybean 5y ago
        They are animals like any other, and this notion of 'apex suburban predator' is nonsense.
- cmurf 5y ago
  Feral cats should be euthanized from a distance. Ask any infectious disease doc about cat bites. And think twice about feral kittens being all innocent, their teeth are like hypodermic needles, and can inject shit into joints. You can lose life and limb from kitty cat bites. These are not cool animals.
ostenning 5y ago
Its a solid point. I'm not sure what the average ownership of cats are, but I would imagine every 3rd or 4th person in my friendship network to own one. I would imagine at least over 100 million cats in north America to which most owners probably let them outside to hunt wild life.
lettergram 5y ago
Bob cats, mountain lions, etc used to have the entire US as their range. I suspect the bird population boomed after we got rid of the cats (100-150 years ago). Now that we have house cats they’re dropping again. Boom-bust cycles for animals are common. I try to reflect what the natural order was 10,000 years ago and reflect. 20,000 years ago, there was an ice sheet over North America - ie no birds. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurentide_Ice_Sheet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurentide_Ice_Sheet
- AlotOfReading 5y ago
  Unless you're talking about the lynx (which mainly eats hares), the historic ranges of American cats barely overlap with LGM ice cover. It's not very relevant to this discussion.
charcircuit 5y ago
>including the cat But my cat likes going outside. He likes catching birds.
- arbitrary_name 5y ago
  I like birds, i like them alive. I would like your car to not go outside and catch birds.
simonsarris 5y ago
That seems very silly. The concept of an indoor or outdoor cat didn't even exist until one hundred years ago. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=outdoor+cat%2C+indoor+cat&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Coutdoor%20cat%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cindoor%20cat%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=outdoor+cat%2C...
elihu 5y ago
Would that even be beneficial? If the problem is that there are fewer insects and therefore the birds have less food, then cats suppressing the bird population might have a positive impact on insects, which the birds eat. That might be good for birds too in the long run. Predators are part of a feedback loop. That the predators in question are housecats makes it a somewhat unnatural feedback loop, but that doesn't necessarily make it bad. Housecats are part of the food chain as well; they can be killed by cayotes and raccoons, and hawks might sometimes go after a small cat.
ca01an 5y ago
Not sure what it is like in the US, but in the UK, the RSPB doesn't seem to think cats are a major cause of bird population decline https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/advice/gardening-for-wildlife/animal-deterrents/cats-and-garden-birds/are-cats-causing-bird-declines/ https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/advice/gardening-...

by cmurf 5y ago

And make outdoor cats illegal. An unpopular opinion no doubt. But from nature photographers to veterinarians, the outdoor cat is not good for anyone, including the cat.

digitaltrees 5y ago

Our door cats have existed for millennia. Pesticides have not. I don’t think outdoor cats are the problem. Pesticides have killed most of the bug biomass in the last several decades and now birds are being affected.

drran 5y ago
I cannot understand why DDT is forbidden, but 10000x more powerful insecticides are not forbidden. WTF? Birds are dropping from the sky in Spring, because they have nothing to eat, because bugs are gone while seeds are not ready yet. Also, air pollution makes them weak. Birds are much more sensitive to air pollution and CO2 level, because they breathe at much higher rate while they have much lower mass than land animals.

Spooky23 5y ago

I blame online communities for this. Cat ladies are insane and organized now. In my city, there’s a group distributing shelters and placing them in various outdoor areas to keep feral cats alive over the winter. They are as nutty as the pigeon feeders, except the cats kill everything in sight.

pirate787 5y ago
We have a group like this, which feeds a couple dozen feral cats on "Kitty Cat Lane." Of course there is science behind the insanity -- toxoplasmosis infections from the cats they love.
- Spooky23 5y ago
  Our local Nextdoor exploded when some particularly nutty cat vigilante started stealing cats and spaying them. I think as society sprawls out and folks have fewer kids, this stuff gets escalated.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    These comments are disturbingly out of touch. 'Neuter and Release' programs are common, supported and sanctioned by animal shelters, usually local vets provide their services for free, and the point is to provide basic medical for the animals while at the same time trying to control excess populations. Calling them 'Nutty cat lady vigilantes' would be like calling people 100 years ago providing shelter for abused women 'Marriage Wreckers'.
    - Spooky23 5y ago
      This particular group of self-described activists were running a squeegee guy scam with cats. They were stealing pets and shaking down the owners for cash.
- jollybean 5y ago
  Enough with the petty, denigrating attacks people helping mostly harmless animals, which is a generally good thing. These rescuers/helpers run 'neuter and release' programs and are keen on having population control, not increasing the number of rogue cats.
  - thatguy0900 5y ago
    Mostly harmless to you... What a strange thing to call what is effectively an apex suburban predator that is known to kill for fun with no intention of eating.
    - jollybean 5y ago
      They are animals like any other, and this notion of 'apex suburban predator' is nonsense.
cmurf 5y ago
Feral cats should be euthanized from a distance. Ask any infectious disease doc about cat bites. And think twice about feral kittens being all innocent, their teeth are like hypodermic needles, and can inject shit into joints. You can lose life and limb from kitty cat bites. These are not cool animals.

ostenning 5y ago

Its a solid point. I'm not sure what the average ownership of cats are, but I would imagine every 3rd or 4th person in my friendship network to own one. I would imagine at least over 100 million cats in north America to which most owners probably let them outside to hunt wild life.

lettergram 5y ago

Bob cats, mountain lions, etc used to have the entire US as their range. I suspect the bird population boomed after we got rid of the cats (100-150 years ago). Now that we have house cats they’re dropping again. Boom-bust cycles for animals are common. I try to reflect what the natural order was 10,000 years ago and reflect. 20,000 years ago, there was an ice sheet over North America - ie no birds. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurentide_Ice_Sheet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurentide_Ice_Sheet

AlotOfReading 5y ago
Unless you're talking about the lynx (which mainly eats hares), the historic ranges of American cats barely overlap with LGM ice cover. It's not very relevant to this discussion.

charcircuit 5y ago

>including the cat But my cat likes going outside. He likes catching birds.

arbitrary_name 5y ago
I like birds, i like them alive. I would like your car to not go outside and catch birds.

simonsarris 5y ago

That seems very silly. The concept of an indoor or outdoor cat didn't even exist until one hundred years ago. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=outdoor+cat%2C+indoor+cat&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Coutdoor%20cat%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cindoor%20cat%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=outdoor+cat%2C...

elihu 5y ago

Would that even be beneficial? If the problem is that there are fewer insects and therefore the birds have less food, then cats suppressing the bird population might have a positive impact on insects, which the birds eat. That might be good for birds too in the long run. Predators are part of a feedback loop. That the predators in question are housecats makes it a somewhat unnatural feedback loop, but that doesn't necessarily make it bad. Housecats are part of the food chain as well; they can be killed by cayotes and raccoons, and hawks might sometimes go after a small cat.

ca01an 5y ago

Not sure what it is like in the US, but in the UK, the RSPB doesn't seem to think cats are a major cause of bird population decline https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/advice/gardening-for-wildlife/animal-deterrents/cats-and-garden-birds/are-cats-causing-bird-declines/ https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/advice/gardening-...