4 ms·

"For decades, it turns out, needlessly onerous regulations had deprived Californians of both the pleasure of eating outdoors and the convivial streetscapes that

by oblib 5y ago

"For decades, it turns out, needlessly onerous regulations had deprived Californians of both the pleasure of eating outdoors and the convivial streetscapes that curbside dining creates." I have to think that any restrictions on that are local, not statewide. Personally, I can't think of many places in LA where I'd want to sit right next to the street, and even less a parking spot on one. The city just wasn't built to accommodate that and it's silly to think public parking should be converted for that purpose. Honestly, this sounds more than just a bit snobbish to me.

peregren 5y ago
The chances are, if it's inhospitable to dining outside, it's a road[1] or a stroad[2], not a street[3]. And its not snobbish to want places that are a little more friendly to people. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroad [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street
- dabbledash 5y ago
  “ city residents and urban planners draw a crucial modern distinction: a road's main function is transportation, while streets facilitate public interaction.[1] Examples of streets include pedestrian streets, alleys, and city-centre streets too crowded for road vehicles to pass. Conversely, highways and motorways are types of roads, but few would refer to them as streets.[2][3]” I lived in NYC for a decade and know plenty of city residents, none of whom make this distinction. I really hope this doesn’t turn into a case of niche experts redefining a common word and then insisting that people using the normal definition are somehow wrong or less precise.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    I know lots of people who would never make that distinction either, but that's mostly because they've never actually thought much about urban planning, pedestrian/vehicle interaction, mixed-used neighborhoods and so forth. That doesn't mean they are bad or stupid people, it's just not their thing. What are the normal definitions of "road" and "street"? What words would you use to describe the differences that Strong Towns is referring to?
    - dabbledash 5y ago
      ‘What are the normal definitions of "road" and "street"?’ The wikipedia article gp linked and I quoted says that street is another word for road and is usually used for paved roads. I’d say that that is consistent with how i’ve seen people use those words. And of course using words as they are commonly used doesn’t make people bad or stupid. Similarly, using a non-standard definition of a word in some narrow setting doesn’t make the people doing that bad or stupid. But it’s silly for people in that latter group to behave as if the definition they’ve made up is the REAL one that other people just don’t know about. ETA: I don’t think I have a word for what they’re calling “streets.” Which makes sense; I’m sure if there were an existing word for this, urban planners would just use that instead of repurposing “street.” If it were up to me, I probably would have chosen a different word, since this usage is so at odds with the norm, but I don’t think it matters much as long as the usage is consistent within the discipline itself.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  And then of course, in Chester Co., PA (a western suburb of Philadelphia), there's the delightfully named "Street Road", which is generally a road, but occasionally a street.
- oblib 5y ago
  There are very few quaint streets in LA that are zoned commercial. So in LA we're not talking about "streets". There may be places that fit that description but I'd expect parking spots are not abundant there. This feels to me like recently gentrified neighborhoods wanting to keep the "riffraff" out.
asdff 5y ago
Why is it silly to think public parking shouldn't be converted? It's the restaurants that are doing these conversions. They want this dining space. It rains 5 days a year here, so having that space means you've just doubled your square footage for some of these restaurants without paying any extra in rent at all. On top of that there is too much parking in LA. Tons of parking lots and garages already exist and nearly anything new built seems to have a good 2-3 stories of parking structure included with the build. It's only hard finding parking in LA if you insist on finding free street parking vs paying for the $2/hr lot that might even be free itself with validation from nearby local businesses.
- oblib 5y ago
  >>It's the restaurants that are doing these conversions. They want this dining space. Taxpayers own that street. That's why it's silly to give a business that space. A flip side of this is I pull up in my "Food Truck" and park there and sit all day selling my food in front of the restaurant that's in a building just on the other side of the sidewalk. And while I'm at why not set up some tables and chairs on the sidewalk in front of that restaurant? If it's me that's "doing these conversions" no one should object, right?
  - asdff 5y ago
    You aren't giving them the space, they have to apply for it through permitting processes approved by representatives elected by taxpayers.
    - oblib 5y ago
      If they're not paying the city for it then they're giving it to them, but that doesn't mean they're not paying for it. The idea that there is no "pay to play" going on in local politics is absurd. But the public is not getting anything for their tax dollars in return when that happens under the table and no fees are placed in the local Gov's coffers. What do you think those restaurants would do if the city allowed catering trucks to sit in those parking spots for free and serve food right outside a their front door all day and night? What if I own a business next door to them? How does that not inconvenience my patrons? This is flashback to what we used to call "Yuppies" back in the `80s. I lived in LA then. Not much has changed there except the gentrification of places like Venice Beach.

by oblib 5y ago

peregren 5y ago

The chances are, if it's inhospitable to dining outside, it's a road[1] or a stroad[2], not a street[3]. And its not snobbish to want places that are a little more friendly to people. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroad [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street

dabbledash 5y ago
“ city residents and urban planners draw a crucial modern distinction: a road's main function is transportation, while streets facilitate public interaction.[1] Examples of streets include pedestrian streets, alleys, and city-centre streets too crowded for road vehicles to pass. Conversely, highways and motorways are types of roads, but few would refer to them as streets.[2][3]” I lived in NYC for a decade and know plenty of city residents, none of whom make this distinction. I really hope this doesn’t turn into a case of niche experts redefining a common word and then insisting that people using the normal definition are somehow wrong or less precise.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  I know lots of people who would never make that distinction either, but that's mostly because they've never actually thought much about urban planning, pedestrian/vehicle interaction, mixed-used neighborhoods and so forth. That doesn't mean they are bad or stupid people, it's just not their thing. What are the normal definitions of "road" and "street"? What words would you use to describe the differences that Strong Towns is referring to?
  - dabbledash 5y ago
    ‘What are the normal definitions of "road" and "street"?’ The wikipedia article gp linked and I quoted says that street is another word for road and is usually used for paved roads. I’d say that that is consistent with how i’ve seen people use those words. And of course using words as they are commonly used doesn’t make people bad or stupid. Similarly, using a non-standard definition of a word in some narrow setting doesn’t make the people doing that bad or stupid. But it’s silly for people in that latter group to behave as if the definition they’ve made up is the REAL one that other people just don’t know about. ETA: I don’t think I have a word for what they’re calling “streets.” Which makes sense; I’m sure if there were an existing word for this, urban planners would just use that instead of repurposing “street.” If it were up to me, I probably would have chosen a different word, since this usage is so at odds with the norm, but I don’t think it matters much as long as the usage is consistent within the discipline itself.
PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
And then of course, in Chester Co., PA (a western suburb of Philadelphia), there's the delightfully named "Street Road", which is generally a road, but occasionally a street.
oblib 5y ago
There are very few quaint streets in LA that are zoned commercial. So in LA we're not talking about "streets". There may be places that fit that description but I'd expect parking spots are not abundant there. This feels to me like recently gentrified neighborhoods wanting to keep the "riffraff" out.

asdff 5y ago

Why is it silly to think public parking shouldn't be converted? It's the restaurants that are doing these conversions. They want this dining space. It rains 5 days a year here, so having that space means you've just doubled your square footage for some of these restaurants without paying any extra in rent at all. On top of that there is too much parking in LA. Tons of parking lots and garages already exist and nearly anything new built seems to have a good 2-3 stories of parking structure included with the build. It's only hard finding parking in LA if you insist on finding free street parking vs paying for the $2/hr lot that might even be free itself with validation from nearby local businesses.

oblib 5y ago
>>It's the restaurants that are doing these conversions. They want this dining space. Taxpayers own that street. That's why it's silly to give a business that space. A flip side of this is I pull up in my "Food Truck" and park there and sit all day selling my food in front of the restaurant that's in a building just on the other side of the sidewalk. And while I'm at why not set up some tables and chairs on the sidewalk in front of that restaurant? If it's me that's "doing these conversions" no one should object, right?
- asdff 5y ago
  You aren't giving them the space, they have to apply for it through permitting processes approved by representatives elected by taxpayers.
  - oblib 5y ago
    If they're not paying the city for it then they're giving it to them, but that doesn't mean they're not paying for it. The idea that there is no "pay to play" going on in local politics is absurd. But the public is not getting anything for their tax dollars in return when that happens under the table and no fees are placed in the local Gov's coffers. What do you think those restaurants would do if the city allowed catering trucks to sit in those parking spots for free and serve food right outside a their front door all day and night? What if I own a business next door to them? How does that not inconvenience my patrons? This is flashback to what we used to call "Yuppies" back in the `80s. I lived in LA then. Not much has changed there except the gentrification of places like Venice Beach.