4 ms·

Sure, but I'd say the problem is it also left us with the idea that "because Mom's iPhone is so popular, everything, no matter how complex, should look and feel

by jrm4 5y ago

Sure, but I'd say the problem is it also left us with the idea that "because Mom's iPhone is so popular, everything, no matter how complex, should look and feel like that," leaving out e.g. a great deal of useful complexity.

kaba0 5y ago
I think complexity doesn’t have to be exposed by default on the UI. I’m not an apple fan, but I think ios finds a great balance between not having buttons for every single command (though behind menus it would be ok), yet still exposing it with some niche tricks you have to learn. For example touching the upper left corner’s clock will scroll up, which won’t be discovered by my mum but I can use it.
- subinsebastien 5y ago
  I used to call myself an expert iOS user and I didn’t knew this clock trick. I think I’m no more an expert.
- jolux 5y ago
  It’s not just touching the clock, it’s touching the top edge of the screen.
- wilkommen 5y ago
  Nice one, I didn't know that trick.
- jrm4 5y ago
  You, in passing, nailed exactly what's wrong with Apple's way of doing UI. "Niche tricks you have to learn?" That's ridiculous. It's perfectly fine to do a great default UI that most people like without any adjustment -- but it's preposterous that there's no "go in and change just about whatever you want how you want (even if that option is in the way back)." This is why I've been hardcore Linux for quite some time.
  - jolux 5y ago
    I didn’t think this was niche, I’m pretty sure this has been an iPhone feature since day 1. I used to trigger it by mistake on the small screens. It’s also not really a critical gesture, it’s a power user feature like keyboard shortcuts on a desktop system. It’s there if you need it but you can also grab the scroll bar and drag it to the top to do the same thing. > This is why I've been hardcore Linux for quite some time. Good thing Linux has no niche tricks that have to be learned to use it. I kid, I love Linux, but this is a weird criticism to have of iOS which, interface wise, is far simpler than any Linux distro I’ve ever used.
    - jrm4 5y ago
      Someone said it much better way up above but -- yes, Apple has "niche tricks that are hard to even know about, because Apple actively hides things from you and secretly changes things without telling you." Linux is "Yep, this isn't easy, but it's generally well documented and talked about. It may take some work to get there, but it won't be mysterious and unexpected like Apple."
  - kaba0 5y ago
    Could you sit in front of Blender, Microsoft Office, GIMP or Photoshop without previous knowledge of them and do anything at all with them? What about IDEs? Please see my other comment where I go into more detail, but I think sufficiently pro features can’t really be made discoverable and it’s okay to have only the base functionality exposed. And I don’t think linux changes anything over that other than you being able to use a different desktop env/window manager. I have had my fair share with tiling wms and whatnot, but on linux I now default to Gnome. It is opinionated but I think that’s the job of a good wm.
    - daoismyname 5y ago
      > Could you sit in front of Blender, Microsoft Office, GIMP or Photoshop without previous knowledge of them and do anything at all with them? yes they have menus, especially GIMP, the ugliest of them all, but menus are everywhere just a right click away but anyway you are in a familiar zone: every software is made that way, except, of course, Apple. the problem with Apple is that they are trying to make every software look like a calendar or contact list application. that's a pretty low bar for a standard UI and frankly it means they consider their users mentally challenged.
- laumars 5y ago
  The thing I hate most about Apple products is these secret member handshakes that are completely non-discoverable to anyone outside of Apples precious alumni. I’ve been using Apple products for years and I still haven’t figured out hall of these tricks and nor can I recall them when I need them. In fact I’ve even got as far as accidentally triggering gestures and thought “that’s handy” but then been completely unable to figure out how to re-trigger that gesture. I really don’t understand the hate for menus. Everything is named and categorised. Ok it doesn’t translate to a mobile phone all that well but I also don’t see why desktop UIs have to mimic smart phones and tablets. For me, KDE gets it right. All the key features immediately available. Menus for advanced features. Hot keys for anything useful (with those hot keys names in menus). And terminal integration with all their core desktop applications (like file manager, text editor, etc) so you don’t have to compromise between using the GUI or CLI. KDE also makes tiling windows easy without forcing people into a full on strict tiling WM. Something macOS is appalling at - even Windows does a better job than macOS.
  - kaba0 5y ago
    I think we should differentiate between single-use programs and those that are more of an investment. Like, my torrent client should not be too clever as I will use it haphazardly with way too much time between starts, so anything I should memorize about it will likely be forgotten by the next time. But on the other hand, things like photoshop, blender and even microsoft word and general uis absolutely fall into the investment category. You have no chance to discover by accident how to create a complex scene in blender for example — “pros” will always have new tricks for you. These are very complex programs where even your hierarchical menus would overflow with info — so now you have context-dependent right clicks bringing out menus not available otherwise. And I think it is a really great design, originating from the very first GUIs! But it only makes sense for us because we have already learned over the years/decades that right clicking is a cool trick oftentimes providing more functionality. It is a cross-program convention. While available on the menu bar, alt+tab is also not an instinctual thing to press, we had to learn that as well. Now phones did have to reinvent many things and whether we like it or not, newer generations’ first instinct will be touch based, not mouse cursor based. I also see no evil in trying to create UXes that could potentially benefit from both touch and cursor-based usage. These new conventions has to be created though and hopefully one standardish way will emerge.
- chris37879 5y ago
  This is one of the things I really dislike about my iPhone. I've had it over a year, I've built apps for it professionally for close to a decade (cross platform, so I usually was the teams 'android' guy, but I still had to do iOS cause I knew it...) and I'm _still_ finding things almost every few weeks I had no idea existed. Like the ability to pick up multiple icons on the home screen.

by jrm4 5y ago

kaba0 5y ago

I think complexity doesn’t have to be exposed by default on the UI. I’m not an apple fan, but I think ios finds a great balance between not having buttons for every single command (though behind menus it would be ok), yet still exposing it with some niche tricks you have to learn. For example touching the upper left corner’s clock will scroll up, which won’t be discovered by my mum but I can use it.

subinsebastien 5y ago
I used to call myself an expert iOS user and I didn’t knew this clock trick. I think I’m no more an expert.
jolux 5y ago
It’s not just touching the clock, it’s touching the top edge of the screen.
wilkommen 5y ago
Nice one, I didn't know that trick.
jrm4 5y ago
You, in passing, nailed exactly what's wrong with Apple's way of doing UI. "Niche tricks you have to learn?" That's ridiculous. It's perfectly fine to do a great default UI that most people like without any adjustment -- but it's preposterous that there's no "go in and change just about whatever you want how you want (even if that option is in the way back)." This is why I've been hardcore Linux for quite some time.
- jolux 5y ago
  I didn’t think this was niche, I’m pretty sure this has been an iPhone feature since day 1. I used to trigger it by mistake on the small screens. It’s also not really a critical gesture, it’s a power user feature like keyboard shortcuts on a desktop system. It’s there if you need it but you can also grab the scroll bar and drag it to the top to do the same thing. > This is why I've been hardcore Linux for quite some time. Good thing Linux has no niche tricks that have to be learned to use it. I kid, I love Linux, but this is a weird criticism to have of iOS which, interface wise, is far simpler than any Linux distro I’ve ever used.
  - jrm4 5y ago
    Someone said it much better way up above but -- yes, Apple has "niche tricks that are hard to even know about, because Apple actively hides things from you and secretly changes things without telling you." Linux is "Yep, this isn't easy, but it's generally well documented and talked about. It may take some work to get there, but it won't be mysterious and unexpected like Apple."
- kaba0 5y ago
  Could you sit in front of Blender, Microsoft Office, GIMP or Photoshop without previous knowledge of them and do anything at all with them? What about IDEs? Please see my other comment where I go into more detail, but I think sufficiently pro features can’t really be made discoverable and it’s okay to have only the base functionality exposed. And I don’t think linux changes anything over that other than you being able to use a different desktop env/window manager. I have had my fair share with tiling wms and whatnot, but on linux I now default to Gnome. It is opinionated but I think that’s the job of a good wm.
  - daoismyname 5y ago
    > Could you sit in front of Blender, Microsoft Office, GIMP or Photoshop without previous knowledge of them and do anything at all with them? yes they have menus, especially GIMP, the ugliest of them all, but menus are everywhere just a right click away but anyway you are in a familiar zone: every software is made that way, except, of course, Apple. the problem with Apple is that they are trying to make every software look like a calendar or contact list application. that's a pretty low bar for a standard UI and frankly it means they consider their users mentally challenged.
laumars 5y ago
The thing I hate most about Apple products is these secret member handshakes that are completely non-discoverable to anyone outside of Apples precious alumni. I’ve been using Apple products for years and I still haven’t figured out hall of these tricks and nor can I recall them when I need them. In fact I’ve even got as far as accidentally triggering gestures and thought “that’s handy” but then been completely unable to figure out how to re-trigger that gesture. I really don’t understand the hate for menus. Everything is named and categorised. Ok it doesn’t translate to a mobile phone all that well but I also don’t see why desktop UIs have to mimic smart phones and tablets. For me, KDE gets it right. All the key features immediately available. Menus for advanced features. Hot keys for anything useful (with those hot keys names in menus). And terminal integration with all their core desktop applications (like file manager, text editor, etc) so you don’t have to compromise between using the GUI or CLI. KDE also makes tiling windows easy without forcing people into a full on strict tiling WM. Something macOS is appalling at - even Windows does a better job than macOS.
- kaba0 5y ago
  I think we should differentiate between single-use programs and those that are more of an investment. Like, my torrent client should not be too clever as I will use it haphazardly with way too much time between starts, so anything I should memorize about it will likely be forgotten by the next time. But on the other hand, things like photoshop, blender and even microsoft word and general uis absolutely fall into the investment category. You have no chance to discover by accident how to create a complex scene in blender for example — “pros” will always have new tricks for you. These are very complex programs where even your hierarchical menus would overflow with info — so now you have context-dependent right clicks bringing out menus not available otherwise. And I think it is a really great design, originating from the very first GUIs! But it only makes sense for us because we have already learned over the years/decades that right clicking is a cool trick oftentimes providing more functionality. It is a cross-program convention. While available on the menu bar, alt+tab is also not an instinctual thing to press, we had to learn that as well. Now phones did have to reinvent many things and whether we like it or not, newer generations’ first instinct will be touch based, not mouse cursor based. I also see no evil in trying to create UXes that could potentially benefit from both touch and cursor-based usage. These new conventions has to be created though and hopefully one standardish way will emerge.
chris37879 5y ago
This is one of the things I really dislike about my iPhone. I've had it over a year, I've built apps for it professionally for close to a decade (cross platform, so I usually was the teams 'android' guy, but I still had to do iOS cause I knew it...) and I'm _still_ finding things almost every few weeks I had no idea existed. Like the ability to pick up multiple icons on the home screen.