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Look into technocracy if you're interested in learning more about appointing government officials based on their technical knowledge: https://en.wikipedia.org/w

Look into technocracy if you're interested in learning more about appointing government officials based on their technical knowledge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy Anyone know of any studies of famous techocrats and the overall view on the effectiveness of appointing ppl that aren't career politicians?

kleton 5y ago
The PRC is one ongoing study. The leaders of four of China's provinces are former aerospace engineers. The minister of education, as one might expect, is a computer scientist.
- cutemonster 5y ago
  The PRC and the Soviet Union -- it'd be interesting with democratic countries too. But what if, in democratic countries, it's more important to be good at making an impression (being a career politician), to win more votes
  - necovek 5y ago
    That's equally important for non-politicians: only the most capable will get their lack of social skills ignored, and only sometimes. Engineer-turning-politicians in non-democracies also do not need to make an impression on a wider public, but just on a restricted set of decision makers (or political mentors). USA has had its own share of non-politician politicians (think Schwarzenegger and Trump, to name the few most prominent ones). And I am sure you can find many politicians throughout Europe who have an engineering background, it's just never highlighted. In the USA, it's also that business accomplishments are valued more than problem solving skills, and in politics, you don't get the same freedom as in business: eg. late Steve Jobs would probably have an easy job of getting elected, but what would he have done afterwards? His mode of operation would not translate to democratic governance (even though, arguably, Trump attempted a similar style with less charisma), IMO. Maybe Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg could run for the office? I'd honestly wonder what would the polls say about them (Zuckerberg is maybe not going to do so well with all the privacy-related negatives, but I wonder how much would people care about net worth vs that). But again, these are top-of-the-line businessmen, not top-of-the-line engineers, even if they've got engineering background.
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  Wouldn't it only be a technocracy if the leader of the space program or airforce or whatever was an aerospace engineer? Not just an engineer doing some standard government job like governor or mayor.
  - kleton 5y ago
    Chen Qiufa (electrical engineering) ran CNSA from 2010-2013, then became leader of Lioaning province. His successor at CNSA, Ma Xingrui (PhD mechanical engineering) ran CNSA for a bit in 2013 before being tapped as leader of Guangdong province. His successor, Xu_Dazhe (also started as IC engineer), ran CNSA from 2013-2016, before becoming leader of Hunan province. Same story: Tang Dengjie, Fujian province, now national minister. Current CNSA head Zhang Kejian, physics, going by the pattern, he will "graduate" to some other province or national ministry in a year or two.
culi 5y ago
The former Soviet Union is generally considered an example. 89% of Politburo members were engineers and leaders like Leonid Brezhnev had very technical backgrounds EDIT: to add some more context Technocracy in the Second World (see: tektology) is quite common. In the First World the history of technocracy can't really be understood without studying the history of eugenics. This is also generally true of much of our science and even mathematical theory. Terms like "regression to the mean" have direct origins in eugenics theory https://nautil.us/issue/92/frontiers/how-eugenics-shaped-statistics https://nautil.us/issue/92/frontiers/how-eugenics-shaped-sta...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > In the First World the history of technocracy can't really be understood without studying the history of eugenics. This is also generally true of much of our science and even mathematical theory. Terms like "regression to the mean" have direct origins in eugenics theory And yet studying the history of eugenics will not help you understand regression to the mean. It's certainly not a bar to understanding.
  - w-j-w 5y ago
    Understanding the concept requires no understanding of eugenics. Understanding where it came from does.
  - culi 5y ago
    I wasn't implying that you need to know the history of eugenics to understand statistics. I'm sure most statisticians today don't have a good grasp of that history. I was saying that you need to have a good grasp on the history of eugenics to have a good context to understand the history of technocracy, a political ideology, in the West
wara23arish 5y ago
This has been a very intense debate in lebanon over the last two years. A technocratic gov will still have to make political decisions. And those decisions will often reflect the interests of whoever’s hired them. But in a way it will shield the political class from criticism since they are not the ones implementing the decisions directly.
er4hn 5y ago
Two Western technocrats were Margaret Thatcher and Jimmy Carter. Neither had a good legacy, though for different reasons. Interestingly enough, they are also both from different ends of the political spectrum.
- krasin 5y ago
  To the same list: Angela Merkel is a nuclear physicist.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - nkmnz 5y ago
    She’s not. She did her PhD in physical chemistry. Breaking molecules is not the same as breaking nuclei.
    - krasin 5y ago
      Thank you. My memory lied to me. I stand corrected, although the reason to include Angela to the list is now physical chemistry. :)
- qwytw 5y ago
  Not really, generally someone is considered a technocrat when she/he is appointed to some government position regardless of their political affiliation and purely because of their expertise in the area related to that position not because they might have a degree in STEM E.g. the current PM of Italy Mario Draghi can be considered a technocrat, but definitely not Thatcher or Carter.
  - mongol 5y ago
    Agreed. An elected politician, no matter what background, can't really be a technocrat.
    - 5y ago
wpurvis1 5y ago
I'd have loved to see how well this system worked - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn

kleton 5y ago

The PRC is one ongoing study. The leaders of four of China's provinces are former aerospace engineers. The minister of education, as one might expect, is a computer scientist.

cutemonster 5y ago
The PRC and the Soviet Union -- it'd be interesting with democratic countries too. But what if, in democratic countries, it's more important to be good at making an impression (being a career politician), to win more votes
- necovek 5y ago
  That's equally important for non-politicians: only the most capable will get their lack of social skills ignored, and only sometimes. Engineer-turning-politicians in non-democracies also do not need to make an impression on a wider public, but just on a restricted set of decision makers (or political mentors). USA has had its own share of non-politician politicians (think Schwarzenegger and Trump, to name the few most prominent ones). And I am sure you can find many politicians throughout Europe who have an engineering background, it's just never highlighted. In the USA, it's also that business accomplishments are valued more than problem solving skills, and in politics, you don't get the same freedom as in business: eg. late Steve Jobs would probably have an easy job of getting elected, but what would he have done afterwards? His mode of operation would not translate to democratic governance (even though, arguably, Trump attempted a similar style with less charisma), IMO. Maybe Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg could run for the office? I'd honestly wonder what would the polls say about them (Zuckerberg is maybe not going to do so well with all the privacy-related negatives, but I wonder how much would people care about net worth vs that). But again, these are top-of-the-line businessmen, not top-of-the-line engineers, even if they've got engineering background.
oh_sigh 5y ago
Wouldn't it only be a technocracy if the leader of the space program or airforce or whatever was an aerospace engineer? Not just an engineer doing some standard government job like governor or mayor.
- kleton 5y ago
  Chen Qiufa (electrical engineering) ran CNSA from 2010-2013, then became leader of Lioaning province. His successor at CNSA, Ma Xingrui (PhD mechanical engineering) ran CNSA for a bit in 2013 before being tapped as leader of Guangdong province. His successor, Xu_Dazhe (also started as IC engineer), ran CNSA from 2013-2016, before becoming leader of Hunan province. Same story: Tang Dengjie, Fujian province, now national minister. Current CNSA head Zhang Kejian, physics, going by the pattern, he will "graduate" to some other province or national ministry in a year or two.

culi 5y ago

The former Soviet Union is generally considered an example. 89% of Politburo members were engineers and leaders like Leonid Brezhnev had very technical backgrounds EDIT: to add some more context Technocracy in the Second World (see: tektology) is quite common. In the First World the history of technocracy can't really be understood without studying the history of eugenics. This is also generally true of much of our science and even mathematical theory. Terms like "regression to the mean" have direct origins in eugenics theory https://nautil.us/issue/92/frontiers/how-eugenics-shaped-statistics https://nautil.us/issue/92/frontiers/how-eugenics-shaped-sta...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
thaumasiotes 5y ago
> In the First World the history of technocracy can't really be understood without studying the history of eugenics. This is also generally true of much of our science and even mathematical theory. Terms like "regression to the mean" have direct origins in eugenics theory And yet studying the history of eugenics will not help you understand regression to the mean. It's certainly not a bar to understanding.
- w-j-w 5y ago
  Understanding the concept requires no understanding of eugenics. Understanding where it came from does.
- culi 5y ago
  I wasn't implying that you need to know the history of eugenics to understand statistics. I'm sure most statisticians today don't have a good grasp of that history. I was saying that you need to have a good grasp on the history of eugenics to have a good context to understand the history of technocracy, a political ideology, in the West

wara23arish 5y ago

This has been a very intense debate in lebanon over the last two years. A technocratic gov will still have to make political decisions. And those decisions will often reflect the interests of whoever’s hired them. But in a way it will shield the political class from criticism since they are not the ones implementing the decisions directly.

er4hn 5y ago

Two Western technocrats were Margaret Thatcher and Jimmy Carter. Neither had a good legacy, though for different reasons. Interestingly enough, they are also both from different ends of the political spectrum.

krasin 5y ago
To the same list: Angela Merkel is a nuclear physicist.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- nkmnz 5y ago
  She’s not. She did her PhD in physical chemistry. Breaking molecules is not the same as breaking nuclei.
  - krasin 5y ago
    Thank you. My memory lied to me. I stand corrected, although the reason to include Angela to the list is now physical chemistry. :)
qwytw 5y ago
Not really, generally someone is considered a technocrat when she/he is appointed to some government position regardless of their political affiliation and purely because of their expertise in the area related to that position not because they might have a degree in STEM E.g. the current PM of Italy Mario Draghi can be considered a technocrat, but definitely not Thatcher or Carter.
- mongol 5y ago
  Agreed. An elected politician, no matter what background, can't really be a technocrat.
  - 5y ago

wpurvis1 5y ago

I'd have loved to see how well this system worked - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn