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Actually it isn't. There are tons of examples of whole industries just switching to user-/customer-hostile practices/products, meaning there's simply no more wa

Actually it isn't. There are tons of examples of whole industries just switching to user-/customer-hostile practices/products, meaning there's simply no more way to vote with your wallet. Happened like that with even trivial things like the milk market in Germany. Within a year or two, fresh milk had suddenly all but vanished from the shelves. Once pay-for-fob becomes the norm, good luck trying to enter that market with the pitch "well we give you the fob for free". It's hard enough for a venture like Tesla, which has some serious technological upside. This? Not so much. Edit: another nice example would be news. Good luck finding a news outlet that's willing to let you pay a moderate fee in exchange for a truly ad & tracking free experience that actually covers your reading needs. Seems like a market gap, no?

daxuak 5y ago
I digress but what happend to the milk market? Could you post a reference?
- bckygldstn 5y ago
  I can't find a good reference for the German market specifically, but in some countries/regions most milk is ultra-pasteurised and unrefridgerated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_processing#Worldwide_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_process...
  - sjwalter 5y ago
    Wild. Here I am thankful that Montana recently reduced regulations and made it so small dairies can supply raw milk directly to customers without any inspection from a state or federal agency, so now my family drinks local, fresh, raw milk for the same price as organic UHT crap. Germans can't get anything but this UHT stuff?
    - detaro 5y ago
      Non-UHT is widely available. What has become a lot more common (and is often not clearly labeled) are stronger pasteurization levels that make unopened milk stable for a few weeks refrigerated (it's also sometimes micro-filtrated). Before, softer pasteurization was the more common variant, which then has unopened ~1 week of refrigerated stability. Less offered now, although a good supermarket has it. (These two categories are not fixed standards, so within them there's also variations in how processing is done exactly) Raw milk (i.e. never heated >40°C, unfiltered) is also available, but with stronger requirements on how it's handled before sale and thus often hard to get, especially if you're not local to a farm producing it - obviously transport has to be quick.
Syonyk 5y ago
> Seems like a market gap, no? The problem is that the backend analytics they're collecting are worth so much that they would either have to lose a ton of money with subscriptions, or admit just how much they're making from your "free" eyeballs.
andi999 5y ago
What do you mean fresh milk has vanished?
- Schiendelman 5y ago
  It’s now all hyper-pasteurized and shelf stable. Not even refrigerated.
  - MandieD 5y ago
    The two glass liter bottles of fresh milk min my fridge beg to differ - though they are proudly branded “Frankenmilch”… which just means that it’s produced in Franken (Franconia), the region I live in.
    - Schiendelman 5y ago
      Sure, but try finding that in Berlin. I think the point here is that availability has dropped for many/most people.
  - xwdv 5y ago
    Good lord, this is true dystopia. I drink fresh milk every damn day.
    - detaro 5y ago
      It's also not true at all. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29548136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29548136 for what the original complaint is probably about.
      - Schiendelman 5y ago
        It is true. It’s very hard to find now, and it was not hard to find in the past.
        detaro 5y ago
lowbloodsugar 5y ago
WaPo has an ad-free version for a reasonable fee.
- ThunderSizzle 5y ago
  WaPo is also toilet paper, which is useless if it's digital.
brewdad 5y ago
My local news used to offer an ad-free experience for about $10/mo. I happily paid it. One day they updated their site and starting nagging me to turn off my ad blocker. Wouldn't let me read anything. I canceled that day and told them why. Now they get $0 a month from me. They keep begging me back with $5/mo offers. Nope. That bridge has been burned.
- nanidin 5y ago
  Similar experience with my local newspaper also. They don't get it. We don't want ads and their content is not worth the slap in the face of paying for and then getting shown ads in return.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
klipklop 5y ago
It is the solution, just the consumers don't have the guts to go through with not buying. The average buyer now seems to have little self control. The companies as you pointed out take advantage of it and work together to screw everyone. I do recall the non-fresh milk in Germany. Shelf stable ultra pasteurized milk tastes terrible. In the US you can still get even raw milk.
- yurishimo 5y ago
  Where in the US are you referring to? I know it's available, but I can't say I've ever seen it for sale in a large grocery store. I've only seen it at farmers markets or similar small farm ventures.
  - OldTimeCoffee 5y ago
    It's only legal in 13 states that way. It's actually illegal in 20 states to sell raw milk at all (as of 2017, I don't think this has changed recently). https://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/nonpasteurized-outbreaks-maps.html https://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/nonpasteurized-outbre...
DantesKite 5y ago
True. Sometimes you gotta vote with the pen (legislation).
gentleman11 5y ago
Actually, are technica does offer an ad and tracking free subscription option
soared 5y ago
Your example was true in the 2010s, but I don’t think it’s true in all industries anymore. For example, when the Denver post and other newspapers were gutted by private equity and turned to crazy bad tracking, it took a couple years but a local alternative with a subscription only/ad free model popped up.
sjwalter 5y ago
Can you explain what you mean with the German milk market? You can't buy fresh milk anymore?

daxuak 5y ago

I digress but what happend to the milk market? Could you post a reference?

bckygldstn 5y ago
I can't find a good reference for the German market specifically, but in some countries/regions most milk is ultra-pasteurised and unrefridgerated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_processing#Worldwide_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_process...
- sjwalter 5y ago
  Wild. Here I am thankful that Montana recently reduced regulations and made it so small dairies can supply raw milk directly to customers without any inspection from a state or federal agency, so now my family drinks local, fresh, raw milk for the same price as organic UHT crap. Germans can't get anything but this UHT stuff?
  - detaro 5y ago
    Non-UHT is widely available. What has become a lot more common (and is often not clearly labeled) are stronger pasteurization levels that make unopened milk stable for a few weeks refrigerated (it's also sometimes micro-filtrated). Before, softer pasteurization was the more common variant, which then has unopened ~1 week of refrigerated stability. Less offered now, although a good supermarket has it. (These two categories are not fixed standards, so within them there's also variations in how processing is done exactly) Raw milk (i.e. never heated >40°C, unfiltered) is also available, but with stronger requirements on how it's handled before sale and thus often hard to get, especially if you're not local to a farm producing it - obviously transport has to be quick.

Syonyk 5y ago

> Seems like a market gap, no? The problem is that the backend analytics they're collecting are worth so much that they would either have to lose a ton of money with subscriptions, or admit just how much they're making from your "free" eyeballs.

andi999 5y ago

What do you mean fresh milk has vanished?

Schiendelman 5y ago
It’s now all hyper-pasteurized and shelf stable. Not even refrigerated.
- MandieD 5y ago
  The two glass liter bottles of fresh milk min my fridge beg to differ - though they are proudly branded “Frankenmilch”… which just means that it’s produced in Franken (Franconia), the region I live in.
  - Schiendelman 5y ago
    Sure, but try finding that in Berlin. I think the point here is that availability has dropped for many/most people.
- xwdv 5y ago
  Good lord, this is true dystopia. I drink fresh milk every damn day.
  - detaro 5y ago
    It's also not true at all. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29548136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29548136 for what the original complaint is probably about.
    - Schiendelman 5y ago
      It is true. It’s very hard to find now, and it was not hard to find in the past.
      - detaro 5y ago

lowbloodsugar 5y ago

WaPo has an ad-free version for a reasonable fee.

ThunderSizzle 5y ago
WaPo is also toilet paper, which is useless if it's digital.

brewdad 5y ago

My local news used to offer an ad-free experience for about $10/mo. I happily paid it. One day they updated their site and starting nagging me to turn off my ad blocker. Wouldn't let me read anything. I canceled that day and told them why. Now they get $0 a month from me. They keep begging me back with $5/mo offers. Nope. That bridge has been burned.

nanidin 5y ago
Similar experience with my local newspaper also. They don't get it. We don't want ads and their content is not worth the slap in the face of paying for and then getting shown ads in return.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

klipklop 5y ago

It is the solution, just the consumers don't have the guts to go through with not buying. The average buyer now seems to have little self control. The companies as you pointed out take advantage of it and work together to screw everyone. I do recall the non-fresh milk in Germany. Shelf stable ultra pasteurized milk tastes terrible. In the US you can still get even raw milk.

yurishimo 5y ago
Where in the US are you referring to? I know it's available, but I can't say I've ever seen it for sale in a large grocery store. I've only seen it at farmers markets or similar small farm ventures.
- OldTimeCoffee 5y ago
  It's only legal in 13 states that way. It's actually illegal in 20 states to sell raw milk at all (as of 2017, I don't think this has changed recently). https://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/nonpasteurized-outbreaks-maps.html https://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/nonpasteurized-outbre...

DantesKite 5y ago

True. Sometimes you gotta vote with the pen (legislation).

gentleman11 5y ago

Actually, are technica does offer an ad and tracking free subscription option

soared 5y ago

Your example was true in the 2010s, but I don’t think it’s true in all industries anymore. For example, when the Denver post and other newspapers were gutted by private equity and turned to crazy bad tracking, it took a couple years but a local alternative with a subscription only/ad free model popped up.

sjwalter 5y ago

Can you explain what you mean with the German milk market? You can't buy fresh milk anymore?