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They did not move because of "inhumane and not well thought out" policies, they moved because there was no employment to be had - Bruce Springsteen touched this

They did not move because of "inhumane and not well thought out" policies, they moved because there was no employment to be had - Bruce Springsteen touched this in "The River", Chris Rea in "Steel River". Industry closed down, production moved overseas, people moved to what they hoped were greener pastures but found them to be gray and inhospitable. Now that employment can be had through a network connection people are moving back.

vineyardmike 5y ago
> there was no employment to be had Employment is a policy failure. Likely "not well thought out" if it didn't work as intended :) California and its policies have created an ton of jobs. So many jobs that theres not enough space to put the people who work those jobs. Much of Silicon Valley in the 50s was farmland. Why hasn't every other rural town transformed into the economic powerhouse of the 21st century? Could it be (partially) policy decisions? > Bruce Springsteen touched this Not the authority on human migratory patterns i'd expect.
- hagbard_c 5y ago
  Employment is a policy failure on a much larger scale than that of the small towns which lost the factories which moved overseas - whether that be in the USA or in Europe, doesn't matter. Do you think those small towns could have kept the rust belt alive if only they had some of those ex-Californians around to teach them those "well thought out and humane" policies? Would Appalachia have been a thriving centre of development had only the majors of Bumfuck and Podunk gotten their acts together? Of course not. The policies which gave California those jobs you mentioned are not the policies enacted by the current crop of Californian politicos. This can be seen by the population stats for the state which for the first time ever (?) see a downward trend [1] due to the number of people fleeing the place. Where California used to enact policies which made people flock to the place they now do the opposite. Maybe California was not the best example to give, seeing as how it is currently melting down in more than one way? Power failures, skyrocketing crime, rampant homelessness, tell me something which they're doing right... As to Springsteen not being "the authority" on "human migratory patterns"... really? Why does it take an "authority" to see jobs disappearing from your town/county/state? You forgot to mention Chris Rea, is he more of "an authority"? Of course he isn't and of course he is since this whole "authority" spiel is just that. Both Springsteen and Rea made songs about things they saw happening around them, both of them involve rivers, both saw the jobs disappearing. Rea noticed that there are salmon swimming in Steel River, Springsteen thinks back to better times. They're artists, not "authorities". [1] https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/californias-population-fell-time-history-77558322 https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/californias-population-f...
  - vineyardmike 5y ago
    > Do you think those small towns could have kept the rust belt alive if only they had some of those ex-Californians around to teach them those "well thought out and humane" policies? Would Appalachia have been a thriving centre of development had only the majors of Bumfuck and Podunk gotten their acts together? Yes. Obviously its a little glib to be an arm-chair critic and just handwave all externatilities and decisions away, but yes i think the rust belt was (partially) a policy failure. eg. Cleveland was once one of the richest cities in america, but did nothing to protect or incubate the next generation of businesses there. I used to live near Cleveland's millionaire row. The mansions are now homeless shelters and frat houses, and the rich are gone. A strong policy for employment is to push diversity of the work - lots of different industries, and new ventures so economic cycles don't affect the whole region. Today, that same strip of road is being re-imagined as the "Health-Tech Corridor", is being outfit with a massive fiber line, and encouraging peering between institutions to share medical data for research purposes. I think this is a step in the right direction: instead of waiting for stardard oil to move back, invent your own future. They say a nearby hospital and university collab on medical research, and the gov paid for infra to attract lots of new orgs to the area (its working so far at attracting orgs). Who knows if it'll revitalize the area in 20 years, but it was pretty cheap and paid for by grants, so why not? California proved for years (but maybe flew too close to the sun recently) that you could charge high taxes and high regulation and people would still go, and still start businesses, if you made it worth it. How many "Bumfuck and Podunk"'s are raising taxes to generate more revenue for the locality to offer more for their citizens? Protect workers (humane) and give them affordances to start new ventures (good policy). Bring in (and welcome!) outsiders (humane+policy) who will offer new perspectives and start new businesses, and bring new needs to be met with economic growth. Speaking of outsiders, this whole conversation could be avoided if these podunk places (or those that speak on their behalf?) weren't fearful of outsiders coming in and doing things differently. Be open to outsiders! Be open to change! Just because outsiders are different and not like you doesn't mean they're bad, or wrong, or will make your life worse. Maybe what "podunk" needs the most is some west coast open-mindedness. > The policies which gave California those jobs you mentioned are not the policies enacted by the current crop of Californian politicos. What is the difference between then and now? Genuine question besides obviously politicians come/go and get different string of names on a ballot. > Power failures, skyrocketing crime, rampant homelessness, to be clear, power failure isn't texas-style "our grid is poorly managed" power failure, they turn it off to avoid starting fires at key moments. Still means you don't have electricity, of course, so something needs to be done - and they're actively trying to fix it. The homelessness is a huge policy failure of CA. I agree. NY/MA handle it way better on a policy level (which is more humane too). > tell me something which they're doing right... They have great worker protections. Eg. they don't honor non-competes, a huge requirement for entrepreneurial activity. They are one of a few states to enact privacy laws. This is great for forcing companies to respect users, instead of the state respecting businesses. They are one of a handful states that offer strong LGBT protections in the workplace. A very "humane" law thats missing from most "bumfuck" areas. They have/had strong gun controls and protections. The legalization of cannabis was huge for reducing "crime" and giving people more freedom. Their push for EV and renewable power on the grid is one of the strongest in the country. Driving an EV in cali is easy because of all the chargers, and so many other cars are EV that it creates positive feedback loop.

vineyardmike 5y ago

> there was no employment to be had Employment is a policy failure. Likely "not well thought out" if it didn't work as intended :) California and its policies have created an ton of jobs. So many jobs that theres not enough space to put the people who work those jobs. Much of Silicon Valley in the 50s was farmland. Why hasn't every other rural town transformed into the economic powerhouse of the 21st century? Could it be (partially) policy decisions? > Bruce Springsteen touched this Not the authority on human migratory patterns i'd expect.

hagbard_c 5y ago
Employment is a policy failure on a much larger scale than that of the small towns which lost the factories which moved overseas - whether that be in the USA or in Europe, doesn't matter. Do you think those small towns could have kept the rust belt alive if only they had some of those ex-Californians around to teach them those "well thought out and humane" policies? Would Appalachia have been a thriving centre of development had only the majors of Bumfuck and Podunk gotten their acts together? Of course not. The policies which gave California those jobs you mentioned are not the policies enacted by the current crop of Californian politicos. This can be seen by the population stats for the state which for the first time ever (?) see a downward trend [1] due to the number of people fleeing the place. Where California used to enact policies which made people flock to the place they now do the opposite. Maybe California was not the best example to give, seeing as how it is currently melting down in more than one way? Power failures, skyrocketing crime, rampant homelessness, tell me something which they're doing right... As to Springsteen not being "the authority" on "human migratory patterns"... really? Why does it take an "authority" to see jobs disappearing from your town/county/state? You forgot to mention Chris Rea, is he more of "an authority"? Of course he isn't and of course he is since this whole "authority" spiel is just that. Both Springsteen and Rea made songs about things they saw happening around them, both of them involve rivers, both saw the jobs disappearing. Rea noticed that there are salmon swimming in Steel River, Springsteen thinks back to better times. They're artists, not "authorities". [1] https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/californias-population-fell-time-history-77558322 https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/californias-population-f...
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  > Do you think those small towns could have kept the rust belt alive if only they had some of those ex-Californians around to teach them those "well thought out and humane" policies? Would Appalachia have been a thriving centre of development had only the majors of Bumfuck and Podunk gotten their acts together? Yes. Obviously its a little glib to be an arm-chair critic and just handwave all externatilities and decisions away, but yes i think the rust belt was (partially) a policy failure. eg. Cleveland was once one of the richest cities in america, but did nothing to protect or incubate the next generation of businesses there. I used to live near Cleveland's millionaire row. The mansions are now homeless shelters and frat houses, and the rich are gone. A strong policy for employment is to push diversity of the work - lots of different industries, and new ventures so economic cycles don't affect the whole region. Today, that same strip of road is being re-imagined as the "Health-Tech Corridor", is being outfit with a massive fiber line, and encouraging peering between institutions to share medical data for research purposes. I think this is a step in the right direction: instead of waiting for stardard oil to move back, invent your own future. They say a nearby hospital and university collab on medical research, and the gov paid for infra to attract lots of new orgs to the area (its working so far at attracting orgs). Who knows if it'll revitalize the area in 20 years, but it was pretty cheap and paid for by grants, so why not? California proved for years (but maybe flew too close to the sun recently) that you could charge high taxes and high regulation and people would still go, and still start businesses, if you made it worth it. How many "Bumfuck and Podunk"'s are raising taxes to generate more revenue for the locality to offer more for their citizens? Protect workers (humane) and give them affordances to start new ventures (good policy). Bring in (and welcome!) outsiders (humane+policy) who will offer new perspectives and start new businesses, and bring new needs to be met with economic growth. Speaking of outsiders, this whole conversation could be avoided if these podunk places (or those that speak on their behalf?) weren't fearful of outsiders coming in and doing things differently. Be open to outsiders! Be open to change! Just because outsiders are different and not like you doesn't mean they're bad, or wrong, or will make your life worse. Maybe what "podunk" needs the most is some west coast open-mindedness. > The policies which gave California those jobs you mentioned are not the policies enacted by the current crop of Californian politicos. What is the difference between then and now? Genuine question besides obviously politicians come/go and get different string of names on a ballot. > Power failures, skyrocketing crime, rampant homelessness, to be clear, power failure isn't texas-style "our grid is poorly managed" power failure, they turn it off to avoid starting fires at key moments. Still means you don't have electricity, of course, so something needs to be done - and they're actively trying to fix it. The homelessness is a huge policy failure of CA. I agree. NY/MA handle it way better on a policy level (which is more humane too). > tell me something which they're doing right... They have great worker protections. Eg. they don't honor non-competes, a huge requirement for entrepreneurial activity. They are one of a few states to enact privacy laws. This is great for forcing companies to respect users, instead of the state respecting businesses. They are one of a handful states that offer strong LGBT protections in the workplace. A very "humane" law thats missing from most "bumfuck" areas. They have/had strong gun controls and protections. The legalization of cannabis was huge for reducing "crime" and giving people more freedom. Their push for EV and renewable power on the grid is one of the strongest in the country. Driving an EV in cali is easy because of all the chargers, and so many other cars are EV that it creates positive feedback loop.