6 ms·

Ender's Game, too. [spoilers follow] To ensure that the young boy entrusted with the saving of humanity succeeds before he goes insane, the adults spend years (

by avhon1 5y ago

Ender's Game, too. [spoilers follow] To ensure that the young boy entrusted with the saving of humanity succeeds before he goes insane, the adults spend years (at least a decade), and incredible amounts of money and political power, to manipulate and deceive him and his cohort so that they don't understand the gravity of what they're doing. > "You had to be a weapon, Ender. Like a gun, like the Little Doctor, functioning perfectly but not knowing what you were aimed at. We aimed you. We're responsible. If there was something wrong, we did it." > "Tell me later," Ender said. His eyes closed. > Mazer Rackham shook him. "Don't go to sleep, Ender," he said. "It's very important." > "You're finished with me," Ender said. "Now leave me alone." The most-salient parts are excellently dramatized during tracks 9-12 of Julia Ecklar's "Horsetamer": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD6Lj0OPZAc&list=OLAK5uy_kBD07_gy-LsxQvDAYdm4XqbYUz_E9axQk&index=9 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD6Lj0OPZAc&list=OLAK5uy_kBD... It's a shame Ender's Game hasn't received a quality visual adaptation. I think Evangellion being animated helped a lot with it being able to seriously depict children in a dark story.

tombert 5y ago
I never read the books, I only saw the Ender's Game movie that came out like 8 years ago. I remember thinking that the premise itself had promise, but that the movie was this rushed, hard-to-follow piece of crap that was borderline unwatchable. For years people have told me that the books in the series are way better than the movie but I still haven't gotten around to reading it. Maybe I should.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  I've only seen the movie and didn't think that much of it, since the bulk of it is a kinda cringey children's sports league movie. I don't understand why so much time was spent (in the movie anyway) on weightless lasertag before they're rushed through military command training or whatever and tasked to save humanity.
- delecti 5y ago
  My advice is to not worry yourself with "books" when considering Ender's Game. The first book is a complete product, and it wraps up everything it needs to. The sequels are good too, but they're also unnecessary if you aren't curious to experience more of the world. The ending of Ender's Game is roughly like the slideshow epilogue of a movie saying things like "Johnny went on to medical school and got married". The sequels and side-stories go into things like what happened while Johnny was at medical school, how he met his future wife, or what their retirement looked like, but the epilogue itself doesn't leave you hanging on anything.
  - avhon1 5y ago
    For sure, nobody needs to worry about reading any of the books other than the original. The story begins, happens, and ends, all in one not-very-long novel. After that novel is a whole series of novels that follow Ender into distant futures and places, as he literally runs from his past to keep it from defining him. The first one, Speaker for the Dead, is very recommendable for follow-up reading. The others I would only recommend if you've already decided that you want to read more of the series. However, there is also a different set of sequels, and the first of them is the first book I would recommend to anyone who wanted to read more: Ender's Shadow. (Like Ender's Game, it won both a Hugo award and a Nebula award.) It takes place during the same time as Ender's Game, but from the perspective of one of the secondary characters. This second series of sequels generally takes place on Earth in the time shortly after Ender's Game, and follows Ender's siblings and the other Battle School characters. Like the first series of sequels, I won't go out of my way to recommend these to people who haven't already decided they're interested in reading them. AS I write this comment, I learn that Orson Scott Card has been writing prequels: a trilogy in 2012-2014 (Earth Unaware, Earth Afire, and Earth Awakens) describing the First Formic War (which took place ~50 years before, and is heavily referenced in, Ender's Game), and a not-yet-complete trilogy since 2016 (The Swarm, The Hive, and the not-yet-published The Queens), which appears to be about the actions that were taken after the First Formic War to produce Ender. The reviews on Goodreads are promising; I might read some of these.
    - handrous 5y ago
- rscho 5y ago
  Yes, you should. At least the first book. Even if you don't adhere to the philosophy/politics in the book, it's really quite an entertaining story and it's indeed far, far better than the movie.
  - tombert 5y ago
    I think I have had an aversion to it because I think that Orson Scott Card is a homophobic douchebag. Honestly, though, if I'm going to judge the "art by the artist", I'm afraid that a majority of the music I like is off the table, so maybe I'm drawing a somewhat hypocritical line on that.
    - rscho 5y ago
      Newton was a huge douche. Genius often flourishes in the most extreme environments. Regarding Ender's Game, I think it includes a very good depiction of modern American authoritarianism.
- avhon1 5y ago
  The movie was sorely disappointing, which was itself disappointing because Ender's Game isn't at all unfilmable (except that the main characters are all children in a really messed-up environment). It really is similar to Neon Genesis Evangellion in many respects. If NGE had existed first as a novel, it's hard to think that the TV adaptation would be anywhere near as good as what was actually made. I highly recommend the book, with almost no reservations. It's not very long, and a very stimulating read. If you enjoy that one, and want to read more, then I'd recommend reading either one or both of the immediate sequels (Ender's Shadow and Speaker for the Dead). Iff you read either of those, and enjoyed it, and want to read more, then (and only then) should you concern yourself with the trails of sequels.
  - vlunkr 5y ago
    I think the pacing of Enders game isn't right for Hollywood. The middle of the book, where he's in battle school figuring out politics and strategy is the best part. And what kid doesn't want to be in the battle room? They basically rushed through all the good stuff in order to make room for a longer ending. It would probably be better as a miniseries.
- jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
  I read the first three and have mixed feelings about them. They're creative and well executed. The stories are definitely captivating. But particularly in the later books the author's religious views come out and start coloring things in a way that personally I find a turn off. I feel the same way about the Honor Harrington series, which is basically a riff on redoing Horatio Hornblower in space. The books are quite engaging if you like the gimmick, but the author is a conservative monarchist (in the UK sense) and it comes through pretty strong in most of the books. In the later ones he balances it out a bit though, so I'd guess he's grappling with some view changes of his own.
- henrikschroder 5y ago
  The first book is fantastic, in that it makes a very good portrayal of extremely intelligent children, and how their lack of wisdom and experience allows them to be manipulated. The movie completely missed this point.
- Pxtl 5y ago
  Note if you do choose to pick it up: The author of Ender's Game is highly homophobic, to the point of helping funding the anti-gay-marriage side during the gay marriage rights battle in 2008. On the other hand, it's an excellent book, and I recommend reading it. I'm not telling you what to do, but personally I make it a point to get books like that used, if not borrowed.
  - tombert 5y ago
    Yeah, I replied that in sister thread. Part of why I haven’t read it is because I think Orson Scott Card is a douche.
    - xxpor 5y ago
      I mean, he's a direct decendant of Brigham Young. Not exactly surprising.
      - bacchusracine 5y ago
        > he's a direct decendant of Brigham Young. So you believe in 'bad blood' then? Genetic evil? Or just in the sins of the fathers following their children? Cool. What other scientific beliefs do you have?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 5y ago
    Not defending him one way or the other, but even Obama was against gay marriage in 2008 [1]. [1] https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2012/may/11/barack-obama/president-barack-obamas-shift-gay-marriage/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2012/may/11/barack-oba...
- RhysU 5y ago
  It's worth reading several of the books, if only for Jane. I still wish I could play the fantasy game, decades after I read the original book last.
- setpatchaddress 5y ago
  Dissenting voice here. I did not like the book. It's dark and unpleasant and contra other people here I don't think it speaks to any particularly interesting truths about how supposedly smart kids can be misled. edited to add: I arrived at this opinion when I first read the book sometime in the early 90's, which I think is decades before the author's bigotry became public.
  - samplatt 5y ago
    I read the author's Homecoming series in the 90's. That doesn't outright show his bigotry but my lord, it hints heavily towards it.

by avhon1 5y ago

tombert 5y ago

I never read the books, I only saw the Ender's Game movie that came out like 8 years ago. I remember thinking that the premise itself had promise, but that the movie was this rushed, hard-to-follow piece of crap that was borderline unwatchable. For years people have told me that the books in the series are way better than the movie but I still haven't gotten around to reading it. Maybe I should.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago
I've only seen the movie and didn't think that much of it, since the bulk of it is a kinda cringey children's sports league movie. I don't understand why so much time was spent (in the movie anyway) on weightless lasertag before they're rushed through military command training or whatever and tasked to save humanity.
delecti 5y ago
My advice is to not worry yourself with "books" when considering Ender's Game. The first book is a complete product, and it wraps up everything it needs to. The sequels are good too, but they're also unnecessary if you aren't curious to experience more of the world. The ending of Ender's Game is roughly like the slideshow epilogue of a movie saying things like "Johnny went on to medical school and got married". The sequels and side-stories go into things like what happened while Johnny was at medical school, how he met his future wife, or what their retirement looked like, but the epilogue itself doesn't leave you hanging on anything.
- avhon1 5y ago
  For sure, nobody needs to worry about reading any of the books other than the original. The story begins, happens, and ends, all in one not-very-long novel. After that novel is a whole series of novels that follow Ender into distant futures and places, as he literally runs from his past to keep it from defining him. The first one, Speaker for the Dead, is very recommendable for follow-up reading. The others I would only recommend if you've already decided that you want to read more of the series. However, there is also a different set of sequels, and the first of them is the first book I would recommend to anyone who wanted to read more: Ender's Shadow. (Like Ender's Game, it won both a Hugo award and a Nebula award.) It takes place during the same time as Ender's Game, but from the perspective of one of the secondary characters. This second series of sequels generally takes place on Earth in the time shortly after Ender's Game, and follows Ender's siblings and the other Battle School characters. Like the first series of sequels, I won't go out of my way to recommend these to people who haven't already decided they're interested in reading them. AS I write this comment, I learn that Orson Scott Card has been writing prequels: a trilogy in 2012-2014 (Earth Unaware, Earth Afire, and Earth Awakens) describing the First Formic War (which took place ~50 years before, and is heavily referenced in, Ender's Game), and a not-yet-complete trilogy since 2016 (The Swarm, The Hive, and the not-yet-published The Queens), which appears to be about the actions that were taken after the First Formic War to produce Ender. The reviews on Goodreads are promising; I might read some of these.
  - handrous 5y ago
rscho 5y ago
Yes, you should. At least the first book. Even if you don't adhere to the philosophy/politics in the book, it's really quite an entertaining story and it's indeed far, far better than the movie.
- tombert 5y ago
  I think I have had an aversion to it because I think that Orson Scott Card is a homophobic douchebag. Honestly, though, if I'm going to judge the "art by the artist", I'm afraid that a majority of the music I like is off the table, so maybe I'm drawing a somewhat hypocritical line on that.
  - rscho 5y ago
    Newton was a huge douche. Genius often flourishes in the most extreme environments. Regarding Ender's Game, I think it includes a very good depiction of modern American authoritarianism.
avhon1 5y ago
The movie was sorely disappointing, which was itself disappointing because Ender's Game isn't at all unfilmable (except that the main characters are all children in a really messed-up environment). It really is similar to Neon Genesis Evangellion in many respects. If NGE had existed first as a novel, it's hard to think that the TV adaptation would be anywhere near as good as what was actually made. I highly recommend the book, with almost no reservations. It's not very long, and a very stimulating read. If you enjoy that one, and want to read more, then I'd recommend reading either one or both of the immediate sequels (Ender's Shadow and Speaker for the Dead). Iff you read either of those, and enjoyed it, and want to read more, then (and only then) should you concern yourself with the trails of sequels.
- vlunkr 5y ago
  I think the pacing of Enders game isn't right for Hollywood. The middle of the book, where he's in battle school figuring out politics and strategy is the best part. And what kid doesn't want to be in the battle room? They basically rushed through all the good stuff in order to make room for a longer ending. It would probably be better as a miniseries.
jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
I read the first three and have mixed feelings about them. They're creative and well executed. The stories are definitely captivating. But particularly in the later books the author's religious views come out and start coloring things in a way that personally I find a turn off. I feel the same way about the Honor Harrington series, which is basically a riff on redoing Horatio Hornblower in space. The books are quite engaging if you like the gimmick, but the author is a conservative monarchist (in the UK sense) and it comes through pretty strong in most of the books. In the later ones he balances it out a bit though, so I'd guess he's grappling with some view changes of his own.
henrikschroder 5y ago
The first book is fantastic, in that it makes a very good portrayal of extremely intelligent children, and how their lack of wisdom and experience allows them to be manipulated. The movie completely missed this point.
Pxtl 5y ago
Note if you do choose to pick it up: The author of Ender's Game is highly homophobic, to the point of helping funding the anti-gay-marriage side during the gay marriage rights battle in 2008. On the other hand, it's an excellent book, and I recommend reading it. I'm not telling you what to do, but personally I make it a point to get books like that used, if not borrowed.
- tombert 5y ago
  Yeah, I replied that in sister thread. Part of why I haven’t read it is because I think Orson Scott Card is a douche.
  - xxpor 5y ago
    I mean, he's a direct decendant of Brigham Young. Not exactly surprising.
    - bacchusracine 5y ago
      > he's a direct decendant of Brigham Young. So you believe in 'bad blood' then? Genetic evil? Or just in the sins of the fathers following their children? Cool. What other scientific beliefs do you have?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 5y ago
  Not defending him one way or the other, but even Obama was against gay marriage in 2008 [1]. [1] https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2012/may/11/barack-obama/president-barack-obamas-shift-gay-marriage/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2012/may/11/barack-oba...
RhysU 5y ago
It's worth reading several of the books, if only for Jane. I still wish I could play the fantasy game, decades after I read the original book last.
setpatchaddress 5y ago
Dissenting voice here. I did not like the book. It's dark and unpleasant and contra other people here I don't think it speaks to any particularly interesting truths about how supposedly smart kids can be misled. edited to add: I arrived at this opinion when I first read the book sometime in the early 90's, which I think is decades before the author's bigotry became public.
- samplatt 5y ago
  I read the author's Homecoming series in the 90's. That doesn't outright show his bigotry but my lord, it hints heavily towards it.