10 ms·

Sigh... While I look forward to having an electric car someday, the trend in new cars does not look promising. Far too many instances of car companies having t

Sigh... While I look forward to having an electric car someday, the trend in new cars does not look promising. Far too many instances of car companies having too much control, because of the advent of internet-connected vehicles. Is there a solution to this? I don't know. Especially because I can see legislation cementing these sorts of practices in very much convoluted ways. One can only hope competing car brands emerge whose competitive advantage is along the lines of "Your car, you can do whatever the fuck you want with it".

shiftpgdn 5y ago
I have both a new electric Audi and new Tesla. In either car I can just remove the sim and it'll completely disable all of the internet based features. A lot of the FUD around new cars is spread by grumpy old automotive journalists.
- Karsteski 5y ago
  If you were to remove the sim card, would that void your warranty with either of those manufacturers? If so, that is not a long term solution, unfortunately.
  - shiftpgdn 5y ago
    No. They just stop calling home to the mothership. My Audi actually had a faulty sim module for a few months until I had time to get it fixed and other than not being able to check the charge status while away from the car it didn't really bother me.
- foobarian 5y ago
  > In either car I can just remove the sim For now!
- luma 5y ago
  Does this impact your access to Tesla services or charging infrastructure? Can you still supercharge?
  - shiftpgdn 5y ago
    As far as I know yes you can still supercharge. The only thing I lose is the ability to remote control the car when out of bluetooth range as well as all the map & streaming features.
  - darknavi 5y ago
    Should be able to supercharge. It communicates with the charger over the charging cable to tell it what account to charge. You might lose access once you're on old enough software though.
- jen20 5y ago
  What happens when they (inevitably) move to eSIM?
  - shiftpgdn 5y ago
    The Audi has a "cellular off" option in the MMI. I'd have to dig into the Tesla to verify.
  - anakaine 5y ago
    Remove the antenna, or break the wire trace antenna.
    - rabuse 5y ago
      "Just void your warranty with this simple trick!"
- petre 5y ago
  Wait until they put in eSIMs. Those you can probably disable as well but with a different level of expertise. Or you can damage the antenna or just stick aluminium foil tape onto it.
lvs 5y ago
The idea that a car would automatically download an update that changes how something on the car works is insanity. I'm not buying a car with that "feature."
- r00fus 5y ago
  That ship is departing as we speak [1] - that article was from 3 years ago. I'm sure it's worse now. BMW was definitely ahead of it's time charging a service fee for enabling AndroidAuto/CarPlay (among other car features). https://www.consumerreports.org/automotive-technology/automakers-embrace-over-the-air-updates-can-we-trust-digital-car-repair/ https://www.consumerreports.org/automotive-technology/automa...
- mavhc 5y ago
  The idea that a computer would automatically download an update that changes how something on the computer works is insanity. I'm not buying a computer with that "feature."
caymanjim 5y ago
I'd like to get a Tesla, but I won't, because you can't own a Tesla. You can only pay licensing fees to be the user, and Tesla can modify or disable the car at their whim, while also tracking and recording your every motion. We need lawmakers who actually care about privacy and ownership rights.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  When I worked in mortgages in a previous career, we had a presenter talk to us about Private Mortgage Insurance (PMI). Back in the day, banks by default would just tack it on as an extra insurance for them in case you were to default. You're basically paying insurance against yourself to cover the banks losses. Once it was added, it was basically permanent for the life of the loan. Then one day, a senator I think from Utah was asking about his his costs after signing. The bank explained to him that it was PMI and he couldn't remove it. Thanks to that situation, PMI cannot be enforced if the loan to value ratio is below a specified threshold and the banks cannot force it on you if you meet that threshold prior to closing or after you reach it. In a nutshell, this is what needs to happen before a lawmaker bothers.
  - xwdv 5y ago
    This is why it’s important for many of the software engineers from hackernews to consider a career in politics after reaching a certain level of wealth and seniority in their career. If some of the greatest minds in the tech industry can rise to positions of power in government we can build a better world the way we know it should be, rather than hoping decrepit politicians come around to good ideas eventually.
  - greedo 5y ago
    Unfortunately, most businesses will only react to three things; stuff that makes them money, stuff that costs them money, and laws that are enforced effectively. Look how hard Apple is fighting against allowing alternative payment systems for apps. And against Right to Repair. Yet they start to budge a bit when lawmakers make them feel uncomfortable, or even pass laws (though most of Congress isn't really interested in the legislative side of the job.)
Faaak 5y ago
There are many electric cars on the market that are just plain "old" cars: hyundai ioniq, renault zoe, peugeot e-208, etc... No subscription and they work quite well.
- nicce 5y ago
  But they are practically useless outside of cities. No range so they are not an option.
  - notJim 5y ago
    They're not great for long roadtrips, but they would be fine for weekend or short trips to places with charging. For example, from where I live to the coast is about 80 miles, and many of the coastal cities have at least L2 and some L3 charging. This would be fine with many of these cars. You might not need to charge at all with some of them.
    - nicce 5y ago
      My scenario might be a bit extreme, but closest food store is 40 miles away. Closest charger is 200 miles away. (Talking from Europe) Visiting my parents take 300 miles trip (one direction), and requires charging stop. And this is considered here as relatively normal driving trip. And in winter, the range drops significantly. It is 7 month winter here. Why would I buy a car which is useful only for short weekend trips when there are better options available?
      - notJim 5y ago
        "It's not useful in my specific scenario, which I acknowledge is extreme, therefore the cars are useless outside cities." Not everything has to work for everyone in every situation to be useful. These cars are perfectly useful for many people, including outside cities.
        nicce 5y ago
jjtheblunt 5y ago
I've been driving a 2014 BMW i3 ev for 7+ years; it works great, but has about 100mile range, since it's using smaller batteries. I wish it WERE internet connected: for BMW to update the maps of the nav system can (supposedly) only be done at the BMW dealer, costs something like $180 for the map updates (North America), and requires a two day stay at the dealer, with associated labor-time fees. BMW is just a laughable Big Money Waste.
- rabuse 5y ago
  I own a BMW also. Will never own one again after the maintenance nightmare they are.
  - crackercrews 5y ago
    Does this apply to their EVs as well?
xtracto 5y ago
I love and work every day in computers, but I like my consumer electronics as dumb as they can be. I just need to complete a joke of "I like my electronics as my XXXX: dumb as a rock"
solididiot 5y ago
Yeah. We've had the same hopes for mobile phones and at best you can hope for makes that do not overload their models with their own sh1tware on top of Android.

shiftpgdn 5y ago

I have both a new electric Audi and new Tesla. In either car I can just remove the sim and it'll completely disable all of the internet based features. A lot of the FUD around new cars is spread by grumpy old automotive journalists.

Karsteski 5y ago
If you were to remove the sim card, would that void your warranty with either of those manufacturers? If so, that is not a long term solution, unfortunately.
- shiftpgdn 5y ago
  No. They just stop calling home to the mothership. My Audi actually had a faulty sim module for a few months until I had time to get it fixed and other than not being able to check the charge status while away from the car it didn't really bother me.
foobarian 5y ago
> In either car I can just remove the sim For now!
luma 5y ago
Does this impact your access to Tesla services or charging infrastructure? Can you still supercharge?
- shiftpgdn 5y ago
  As far as I know yes you can still supercharge. The only thing I lose is the ability to remote control the car when out of bluetooth range as well as all the map & streaming features.
- darknavi 5y ago
  Should be able to supercharge. It communicates with the charger over the charging cable to tell it what account to charge. You might lose access once you're on old enough software though.
jen20 5y ago
What happens when they (inevitably) move to eSIM?
- shiftpgdn 5y ago
  The Audi has a "cellular off" option in the MMI. I'd have to dig into the Tesla to verify.
- anakaine 5y ago
  Remove the antenna, or break the wire trace antenna.
  - rabuse 5y ago
    "Just void your warranty with this simple trick!"
petre 5y ago
Wait until they put in eSIMs. Those you can probably disable as well but with a different level of expertise. Or you can damage the antenna or just stick aluminium foil tape onto it.

lvs 5y ago

The idea that a car would automatically download an update that changes how something on the car works is insanity. I'm not buying a car with that "feature."

r00fus 5y ago
That ship is departing as we speak [1] - that article was from 3 years ago. I'm sure it's worse now. BMW was definitely ahead of it's time charging a service fee for enabling AndroidAuto/CarPlay (among other car features). https://www.consumerreports.org/automotive-technology/automakers-embrace-over-the-air-updates-can-we-trust-digital-car-repair/ https://www.consumerreports.org/automotive-technology/automa...
mavhc 5y ago
The idea that a computer would automatically download an update that changes how something on the computer works is insanity. I'm not buying a computer with that "feature."

caymanjim 5y ago

I'd like to get a Tesla, but I won't, because you can't own a Tesla. You can only pay licensing fees to be the user, and Tesla can modify or disable the car at their whim, while also tracking and recording your every motion. We need lawmakers who actually care about privacy and ownership rights.

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
When I worked in mortgages in a previous career, we had a presenter talk to us about Private Mortgage Insurance (PMI). Back in the day, banks by default would just tack it on as an extra insurance for them in case you were to default. You're basically paying insurance against yourself to cover the banks losses. Once it was added, it was basically permanent for the life of the loan. Then one day, a senator I think from Utah was asking about his his costs after signing. The bank explained to him that it was PMI and he couldn't remove it. Thanks to that situation, PMI cannot be enforced if the loan to value ratio is below a specified threshold and the banks cannot force it on you if you meet that threshold prior to closing or after you reach it. In a nutshell, this is what needs to happen before a lawmaker bothers.
- xwdv 5y ago
  This is why it’s important for many of the software engineers from hackernews to consider a career in politics after reaching a certain level of wealth and seniority in their career. If some of the greatest minds in the tech industry can rise to positions of power in government we can build a better world the way we know it should be, rather than hoping decrepit politicians come around to good ideas eventually.
- greedo 5y ago
  Unfortunately, most businesses will only react to three things; stuff that makes them money, stuff that costs them money, and laws that are enforced effectively. Look how hard Apple is fighting against allowing alternative payment systems for apps. And against Right to Repair. Yet they start to budge a bit when lawmakers make them feel uncomfortable, or even pass laws (though most of Congress isn't really interested in the legislative side of the job.)

Faaak 5y ago

There are many electric cars on the market that are just plain "old" cars: hyundai ioniq, renault zoe, peugeot e-208, etc... No subscription and they work quite well.

nicce 5y ago
But they are practically useless outside of cities. No range so they are not an option.
- notJim 5y ago
  They're not great for long roadtrips, but they would be fine for weekend or short trips to places with charging. For example, from where I live to the coast is about 80 miles, and many of the coastal cities have at least L2 and some L3 charging. This would be fine with many of these cars. You might not need to charge at all with some of them.
  - nicce 5y ago
    My scenario might be a bit extreme, but closest food store is 40 miles away. Closest charger is 200 miles away. (Talking from Europe) Visiting my parents take 300 miles trip (one direction), and requires charging stop. And this is considered here as relatively normal driving trip. And in winter, the range drops significantly. It is 7 month winter here. Why would I buy a car which is useful only for short weekend trips when there are better options available?
    - notJim 5y ago
      "It's not useful in my specific scenario, which I acknowledge is extreme, therefore the cars are useless outside cities." Not everything has to work for everyone in every situation to be useful. These cars are perfectly useful for many people, including outside cities.
      - nicce 5y ago

jjtheblunt 5y ago

I've been driving a 2014 BMW i3 ev for 7+ years; it works great, but has about 100mile range, since it's using smaller batteries. I wish it WERE internet connected: for BMW to update the maps of the nav system can (supposedly) only be done at the BMW dealer, costs something like $180 for the map updates (North America), and requires a two day stay at the dealer, with associated labor-time fees. BMW is just a laughable Big Money Waste.

rabuse 5y ago
I own a BMW also. Will never own one again after the maintenance nightmare they are.
- crackercrews 5y ago
  Does this apply to their EVs as well?

xtracto 5y ago

I love and work every day in computers, but I like my consumer electronics as dumb as they can be. I just need to complete a joke of "I like my electronics as my XXXX: dumb as a rock"

solididiot 5y ago

Yeah. We've had the same hopes for mobile phones and at best you can hope for makes that do not overload their models with their own sh1tware on top of Android.