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Not necessarily...110 people in a factory, say you have 30 minutes notice(article says 20!). Stopping the line : 5~10 minutes Collect stuff : 5 minutes Get t

Not necessarily...110 people in a factory, say you have 30 minutes notice(article says 20!). Stopping the line : 5~10 minutes Collect stuff : 5 minutes Get to cars: 5 minutes Get out of gate: 5~10 minutes Oh look, now the news articles would all be asking why didn't the factory make the workers shelter in place instead of sending them out into a dangerous situation. A reasonable/decent employer has emergency plans appropriate for their area and trains their staff on them.

bastardoperator 5y ago
If you've worked in a production factory you know it doesn't take 5-10 minutes to shut down. Nearly all machines/facilities have emergency/instant shutdown capabilities. Looking at the size of this operation in the picture, I don't think it's 5 minutes to the parking lot or 5 minutes to get out either. A well prepared company would have already gone through a tornado evacuation scenario with staff ahead of time. I'll take my chances trying to drive away from a disaster with 15 minutes lead time versus hoping I survive the full impact of the tornado. Maybe I've watched too many stormchasers on twitter, but they're all alive and in cars/vans.
- themaninthedark 5y ago
  My 5~10 minutes figure was for stopping work on the line. Yes, the equipment has e-stops but you still have to get the worker to notice and engage them. Jill driving the forklift in shipping and receiving will probably notice the alarms and stop quickly but she might not be able to just walk away, she might have to reposition so she is not trapping someone else. James doing candle wick QC with his headphones on might not notice as fast. People will often ignore alarms if they don't see others around them acting. >Another reason that people do not respond to disaster signs is that they do not want to deviate from what others are doing. Humans are very social creatures and we tend to take our lead from other people. If the majority of people are not responding to warning signs then we will tend to conform to that behavior and follow their lead - no matter how dangerous it is. For example during a fire at a restaurant diners continue with their meal as if nothing was wrong. One diner even commented that “it was a bit uncomfortable really. The smoke and the sirens of fire engines.” http://clok.uclan.ac.uk/9573/1/Human%20Behaviour%20Paper%202012.pdf http://clok.uclan.ac.uk/9573/1/Human%20Behaviour%20Paper%202... Factories are all about routine and repetition, this can lead to a failure to act.
- counters 5y ago
  I sincerely hope you are never put in a situation where you have to consider evacuating versus sheltering in place and potentially taking a direct hit by a tornado, but PLEASE do not take your chances in a car. Footage from storm chasers is absolutely not representative of what you will almost certainly experience if you try to outrun a tornado in a car. If you're very, very lucky you might be in an area with no trees, a clear and obvious tornado with obvious apparent motion, and knowledge of the local roads which would allow you to quickly pick a single direction to drive in. More likely, though, you (a) won't know where the tornado is in relation to you, (b) won't be able to see it because it's rain-wrapped, and (c) won't be in a place where you can obviously drive quickly in a single, straight line to avoid its path. This doesn't even include other risks like intense winds reasonably far from the tornadic circulation which could roll your vehicle, debris, lightning, hail (especially if you wind up on the wrong side of the storm and core punch), etc. It isn't often that stormchasers perish in tornadoes, but it can and does happen, even to the best of them [1]. Storm chasers generally go to great lengths using significant knowledge, past experience, and real-time data to carefully position themselves in relation to not only the storm they are targeting, but other storms in the area in order to control their risk and overall safety. I'm a meteorologist and I grew up in the midwest, and while were absolutely drilled on tornado safety, "evacuations" were never part of that preparation. Again, I sincerely hope you never have to call upon the information from this post. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Samaras https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Samaras
  - dave78 5y ago
    All the storm chasers I've seen are out in the country too, where they have long sight lines and long, straight roads that they can drive very fast on if needed to get away. Plus they are hopefully experienced enough to stay out of the path and instead try to be on the side of it. Plus, don't most of them have cars that they've added armor and stuff to, both to protect from debris and to add weight so they are less likely to get blown over?
    - counters 5y ago
      No, the vast majority of chasers do not have such modifications to their vehicles, and with the exception of custom-built rigs like Reed Timmer's, these would do nothing to prevent harm during a tornado encounter. The point is that the stormchasers are biased towards chasing in environments where all of these antecedents are there. You don't see much chaser videography from, say, the Ozarks or into the SE because the terrain is far more difficult and less amenable to good footage. These things also make it more dangerous. SW Kentucky would be a terrible place to chase.
- dave78 5y ago
  > tornado evacuation scenario There's no such thing as "tornado evacuation". You take cover immediately. If you're already in a building, you absolutely do not leave. In this particular case it seems they maybe had 10-15 minutes of warning. Usually it is less than that. And, in the moment no one would have known how much warning they had. The only rational response is to find the sturdiest place in the building you're already occupying and get there. Every commercial building I've ever been in has these places designated - they're usually the bathrooms, stairwells, and interior hallways. You'll never, ever see NWS or anyone else official recommend that you go get in a car and drive somewhere in the case of a tornado. The only thing they ever say is "take shelter now", "move to an interior room", "get underground", etc. If you were in a mobile home or some other obviously-unsafe place, then maybe you'd leave to find something better but even then the recommendation would be to lay in a ditch or something, not to get in your car and drive around. A car is one of the worst possible places to be in a tornado.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    I'd say a car might be safer than being exposed on open flat ground. At least it's a steel cage around you. But maybe the second-to-last place you want to be.
    - dave78 5y ago
      That's just always what I was taught, but I suspect in general if you're in a car without nearby access to a building, you're in bad shape no matter what you do. FWIW: https://www.cdc.gov/disasters/tornadoes/during.html https://www.cdc.gov/disasters/tornadoes/during.html "If you’re in a vehicle, Do NOT try to outrun a tornado * Don’t try to outrun a tornado. Drive to the closest shelter. The least desirable place to be during a tornado is in a motor vehicle. Cars, buses, and trucks are easily tossed by tornado winds. * If you’re unable to make it to a safe shelter, either get down in your vehicle and cover your head and neck or leave your vehicle and seek shelter in a low-lying area such as a ditch or ravine. * Stay away from highway overpasses and bridges." None of the other scenarios, such as being in a mobile home, mention anything about getting in a car.
    - 5y ago
MisterTea 5y ago
> Stopping the line : 5~10 minutes 0 minutes - No one should even think about shutting down gracefully in an emergency. GO. NOW. Your facility should have an emergency shutdown procedure. We do and it's called hit the emergency stop buttons and GTFO. > Collect stuff : 5 minutes 0 minutes. Leave it. EMERGENCY. > Get to cars: 5 minutes How far is your car and how big is this building? Granted my shop is small but I can get to my car in 30 seconds from my office at top speed. Your shop should have implemented and tested an evacuation procedure and designated safe meeting spot (If you can safely stand outside). We did, and actually simulated an emergency, found issues with the routes, iterated and retested. We are in fact prepared. Are you? > Get out of gate: 5~10 minutes This is the hard part. Not only do you have to fight your fellow employees but also hoards of other cars especially if you work in an industrial park. If you have a 4x4 use it and let the landscapers worry about the shrubbery and grass you tore up getting the fuck outta dodge. Drive through chain link fences if you have to. Just GO. NOW!
- mindslight 5y ago
  IMO your comment seems to be imagining some a individualist hero do-anything-at-all-costs scenario ("top speed"), rather than the sluggish herd behavior that engineers design for. For example people are going to take some time to realize they need to take an alarm seriously, take a few minutes to collect their effects, shuffle to their cars, say goodbye to their coworkers, they will wait in traffic lines, etc. I strongly agree there needs to be institutional concern paid to tornadoes, but I don't think planning for workers to bug out in their cars is the right approach.
  - MisterTea 5y ago
    > IMO your comment seems to be imagining some a individualist hero do-anything-at-all-costs scenario ("top speed"), rather than the sluggish herd behavior that engineers design for. Indeed this is just your opinion. And the whole individualist hero do anything quip is unnecessary reactionary nonsense. This is about being prepared for an emergency in your facility which entails quickly and safely getting to an exit. > For example people are going to take some time to realize they need to take an alarm seriously, take a few minutes to collect their effects, shuffle to their cars, say goodbye to their coworkers, they will wait in traffic lines, etc. Are they doing this during a fire? They most certainly should not be. > ... but I don't think planning for workers to bug out in their cars is the right approach. This isn't about going George Castanza and pushing old ladies to the floor to get to a fire exit. This is about knowing or having a plan in place and taking it seriously. Maybe your company provides it, maybe you have to figure it out yourself. Point is, always be prepared.
MrStonedOne 5y ago
They had 2 days notice, not 20 minutes.

bastardoperator 5y ago

If you've worked in a production factory you know it doesn't take 5-10 minutes to shut down. Nearly all machines/facilities have emergency/instant shutdown capabilities. Looking at the size of this operation in the picture, I don't think it's 5 minutes to the parking lot or 5 minutes to get out either. A well prepared company would have already gone through a tornado evacuation scenario with staff ahead of time. I'll take my chances trying to drive away from a disaster with 15 minutes lead time versus hoping I survive the full impact of the tornado. Maybe I've watched too many stormchasers on twitter, but they're all alive and in cars/vans.

themaninthedark 5y ago
My 5~10 minutes figure was for stopping work on the line. Yes, the equipment has e-stops but you still have to get the worker to notice and engage them. Jill driving the forklift in shipping and receiving will probably notice the alarms and stop quickly but she might not be able to just walk away, she might have to reposition so she is not trapping someone else. James doing candle wick QC with his headphones on might not notice as fast. People will often ignore alarms if they don't see others around them acting. >Another reason that people do not respond to disaster signs is that they do not want to deviate from what others are doing. Humans are very social creatures and we tend to take our lead from other people. If the majority of people are not responding to warning signs then we will tend to conform to that behavior and follow their lead - no matter how dangerous it is. For example during a fire at a restaurant diners continue with their meal as if nothing was wrong. One diner even commented that “it was a bit uncomfortable really. The smoke and the sirens of fire engines.” http://clok.uclan.ac.uk/9573/1/Human%20Behaviour%20Paper%202012.pdf http://clok.uclan.ac.uk/9573/1/Human%20Behaviour%20Paper%202... Factories are all about routine and repetition, this can lead to a failure to act.
counters 5y ago
I sincerely hope you are never put in a situation where you have to consider evacuating versus sheltering in place and potentially taking a direct hit by a tornado, but PLEASE do not take your chances in a car. Footage from storm chasers is absolutely not representative of what you will almost certainly experience if you try to outrun a tornado in a car. If you're very, very lucky you might be in an area with no trees, a clear and obvious tornado with obvious apparent motion, and knowledge of the local roads which would allow you to quickly pick a single direction to drive in. More likely, though, you (a) won't know where the tornado is in relation to you, (b) won't be able to see it because it's rain-wrapped, and (c) won't be in a place where you can obviously drive quickly in a single, straight line to avoid its path. This doesn't even include other risks like intense winds reasonably far from the tornadic circulation which could roll your vehicle, debris, lightning, hail (especially if you wind up on the wrong side of the storm and core punch), etc. It isn't often that stormchasers perish in tornadoes, but it can and does happen, even to the best of them [1]. Storm chasers generally go to great lengths using significant knowledge, past experience, and real-time data to carefully position themselves in relation to not only the storm they are targeting, but other storms in the area in order to control their risk and overall safety. I'm a meteorologist and I grew up in the midwest, and while were absolutely drilled on tornado safety, "evacuations" were never part of that preparation. Again, I sincerely hope you never have to call upon the information from this post. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Samaras https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Samaras
- dave78 5y ago
  All the storm chasers I've seen are out in the country too, where they have long sight lines and long, straight roads that they can drive very fast on if needed to get away. Plus they are hopefully experienced enough to stay out of the path and instead try to be on the side of it. Plus, don't most of them have cars that they've added armor and stuff to, both to protect from debris and to add weight so they are less likely to get blown over?
  - counters 5y ago
    No, the vast majority of chasers do not have such modifications to their vehicles, and with the exception of custom-built rigs like Reed Timmer's, these would do nothing to prevent harm during a tornado encounter. The point is that the stormchasers are biased towards chasing in environments where all of these antecedents are there. You don't see much chaser videography from, say, the Ozarks or into the SE because the terrain is far more difficult and less amenable to good footage. These things also make it more dangerous. SW Kentucky would be a terrible place to chase.
dave78 5y ago
> tornado evacuation scenario There's no such thing as "tornado evacuation". You take cover immediately. If you're already in a building, you absolutely do not leave. In this particular case it seems they maybe had 10-15 minutes of warning. Usually it is less than that. And, in the moment no one would have known how much warning they had. The only rational response is to find the sturdiest place in the building you're already occupying and get there. Every commercial building I've ever been in has these places designated - they're usually the bathrooms, stairwells, and interior hallways. You'll never, ever see NWS or anyone else official recommend that you go get in a car and drive somewhere in the case of a tornado. The only thing they ever say is "take shelter now", "move to an interior room", "get underground", etc. If you were in a mobile home or some other obviously-unsafe place, then maybe you'd leave to find something better but even then the recommendation would be to lay in a ditch or something, not to get in your car and drive around. A car is one of the worst possible places to be in a tornado.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  I'd say a car might be safer than being exposed on open flat ground. At least it's a steel cage around you. But maybe the second-to-last place you want to be.
  - dave78 5y ago
    That's just always what I was taught, but I suspect in general if you're in a car without nearby access to a building, you're in bad shape no matter what you do. FWIW: https://www.cdc.gov/disasters/tornadoes/during.html https://www.cdc.gov/disasters/tornadoes/during.html "If you’re in a vehicle, Do NOT try to outrun a tornado * Don’t try to outrun a tornado. Drive to the closest shelter. The least desirable place to be during a tornado is in a motor vehicle. Cars, buses, and trucks are easily tossed by tornado winds. * If you’re unable to make it to a safe shelter, either get down in your vehicle and cover your head and neck or leave your vehicle and seek shelter in a low-lying area such as a ditch or ravine. * Stay away from highway overpasses and bridges." None of the other scenarios, such as being in a mobile home, mention anything about getting in a car.
  - 5y ago

MisterTea 5y ago

> Stopping the line : 5~10 minutes 0 minutes - No one should even think about shutting down gracefully in an emergency. GO. NOW. Your facility should have an emergency shutdown procedure. We do and it's called hit the emergency stop buttons and GTFO. > Collect stuff : 5 minutes 0 minutes. Leave it. EMERGENCY. > Get to cars: 5 minutes How far is your car and how big is this building? Granted my shop is small but I can get to my car in 30 seconds from my office at top speed. Your shop should have implemented and tested an evacuation procedure and designated safe meeting spot (If you can safely stand outside). We did, and actually simulated an emergency, found issues with the routes, iterated and retested. We are in fact prepared. Are you? > Get out of gate: 5~10 minutes This is the hard part. Not only do you have to fight your fellow employees but also hoards of other cars especially if you work in an industrial park. If you have a 4x4 use it and let the landscapers worry about the shrubbery and grass you tore up getting the fuck outta dodge. Drive through chain link fences if you have to. Just GO. NOW!

mindslight 5y ago
IMO your comment seems to be imagining some a individualist hero do-anything-at-all-costs scenario ("top speed"), rather than the sluggish herd behavior that engineers design for. For example people are going to take some time to realize they need to take an alarm seriously, take a few minutes to collect their effects, shuffle to their cars, say goodbye to their coworkers, they will wait in traffic lines, etc. I strongly agree there needs to be institutional concern paid to tornadoes, but I don't think planning for workers to bug out in their cars is the right approach.
- MisterTea 5y ago
  > IMO your comment seems to be imagining some a individualist hero do-anything-at-all-costs scenario ("top speed"), rather than the sluggish herd behavior that engineers design for. Indeed this is just your opinion. And the whole individualist hero do anything quip is unnecessary reactionary nonsense. This is about being prepared for an emergency in your facility which entails quickly and safely getting to an exit. > For example people are going to take some time to realize they need to take an alarm seriously, take a few minutes to collect their effects, shuffle to their cars, say goodbye to their coworkers, they will wait in traffic lines, etc. Are they doing this during a fire? They most certainly should not be. > ... but I don't think planning for workers to bug out in their cars is the right approach. This isn't about going George Castanza and pushing old ladies to the floor to get to a fire exit. This is about knowing or having a plan in place and taking it seriously. Maybe your company provides it, maybe you have to figure it out yourself. Point is, always be prepared.

MrStonedOne 5y ago

They had 2 days notice, not 20 minutes.