5 ms·

It's a good question. A reasonable/decent employer would have immediately sent everyone home for safety reasons alone. A factory has to be one of the least safe

It's a good question. A reasonable/decent employer would have immediately sent everyone home for safety reasons alone. A factory has to be one of the least safe places to be in a natural disaster, and candles themselves can be fairly heavy and typically live in glass. I just hope these folks didn't suffer too badly, and honestly I hope the families take legal action against the business.

Clubber 5y ago
So the average warning time of a tornado is around 9 minutes. https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2021/06/16/tornado-warning-system-has-come-long-way-but-could-better/5152104001/ https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2021/06/16/tor... I suspect an even worse place to be during a tornado is a car on the road, which is where the workers would probably be if the employer sent them home. Some things just aren't preventable.
themaninthedark 5y ago
Not necessarily...110 people in a factory, say you have 30 minutes notice(article says 20!). Stopping the line : 5~10 minutes Collect stuff : 5 minutes Get to cars: 5 minutes Get out of gate: 5~10 minutes Oh look, now the news articles would all be asking why didn't the factory make the workers shelter in place instead of sending them out into a dangerous situation. A reasonable/decent employer has emergency plans appropriate for their area and trains their staff on them.
- bastardoperator 5y ago
  If you've worked in a production factory you know it doesn't take 5-10 minutes to shut down. Nearly all machines/facilities have emergency/instant shutdown capabilities. Looking at the size of this operation in the picture, I don't think it's 5 minutes to the parking lot or 5 minutes to get out either. A well prepared company would have already gone through a tornado evacuation scenario with staff ahead of time. I'll take my chances trying to drive away from a disaster with 15 minutes lead time versus hoping I survive the full impact of the tornado. Maybe I've watched too many stormchasers on twitter, but they're all alive and in cars/vans.
  - themaninthedark 5y ago
    My 5~10 minutes figure was for stopping work on the line. Yes, the equipment has e-stops but you still have to get the worker to notice and engage them. Jill driving the forklift in shipping and receiving will probably notice the alarms and stop quickly but she might not be able to just walk away, she might have to reposition so she is not trapping someone else. James doing candle wick QC with his headphones on might not notice as fast. People will often ignore alarms if they don't see others around them acting. >Another reason that people do not respond to disaster signs is that they do not want to deviate from what others are doing. Humans are very social creatures and we tend to take our lead from other people. If the majority of people are not responding to warning signs then we will tend to conform to that behavior and follow their lead - no matter how dangerous it is. For example during a fire at a restaurant diners continue with their meal as if nothing was wrong. One diner even commented that “it was a bit uncomfortable really. The smoke and the sirens of fire engines.” http://clok.uclan.ac.uk/9573/1/Human%20Behaviour%20Paper%202012.pdf http://clok.uclan.ac.uk/9573/1/Human%20Behaviour%20Paper%202... Factories are all about routine and repetition, this can lead to a failure to act.
  - counters 5y ago
    I sincerely hope you are never put in a situation where you have to consider evacuating versus sheltering in place and potentially taking a direct hit by a tornado, but PLEASE do not take your chances in a car. Footage from storm chasers is absolutely not representative of what you will almost certainly experience if you try to outrun a tornado in a car. If you're very, very lucky you might be in an area with no trees, a clear and obvious tornado with obvious apparent motion, and knowledge of the local roads which would allow you to quickly pick a single direction to drive in. More likely, though, you (a) won't know where the tornado is in relation to you, (b) won't be able to see it because it's rain-wrapped, and (c) won't be in a place where you can obviously drive quickly in a single, straight line to avoid its path. This doesn't even include other risks like intense winds reasonably far from the tornadic circulation which could roll your vehicle, debris, lightning, hail (especially if you wind up on the wrong side of the storm and core punch), etc. It isn't often that stormchasers perish in tornadoes, but it can and does happen, even to the best of them [1]. Storm chasers generally go to great lengths using significant knowledge, past experience, and real-time data to carefully position themselves in relation to not only the storm they are targeting, but other storms in the area in order to control their risk and overall safety. I'm a meteorologist and I grew up in the midwest, and while were absolutely drilled on tornado safety, "evacuations" were never part of that preparation. Again, I sincerely hope you never have to call upon the information from this post. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Samaras https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Samaras
- MisterTea 5y ago
  > Stopping the line : 5~10 minutes 0 minutes - No one should even think about shutting down gracefully in an emergency. GO. NOW. Your facility should have an emergency shutdown procedure. We do and it's called hit the emergency stop buttons and GTFO. > Collect stuff : 5 minutes 0 minutes. Leave it. EMERGENCY. > Get to cars: 5 minutes How far is your car and how big is this building? Granted my shop is small but I can get to my car in 30 seconds from my office at top speed. Your shop should have implemented and tested an evacuation procedure and designated safe meeting spot (If you can safely stand outside). We did, and actually simulated an emergency, found issues with the routes, iterated and retested. We are in fact prepared. Are you? > Get out of gate: 5~10 minutes This is the hard part. Not only do you have to fight your fellow employees but also hoards of other cars especially if you work in an industrial park. If you have a 4x4 use it and let the landscapers worry about the shrubbery and grass you tore up getting the fuck outta dodge. Drive through chain link fences if you have to. Just GO. NOW!
  - mindslight 5y ago
    IMO your comment seems to be imagining some a individualist hero do-anything-at-all-costs scenario ("top speed"), rather than the sluggish herd behavior that engineers design for. For example people are going to take some time to realize they need to take an alarm seriously, take a few minutes to collect their effects, shuffle to their cars, say goodbye to their coworkers, they will wait in traffic lines, etc. I strongly agree there needs to be institutional concern paid to tornadoes, but I don't think planning for workers to bug out in their cars is the right approach.
    - MisterTea 5y ago
      > IMO your comment seems to be imagining some a individualist hero do-anything-at-all-costs scenario ("top speed"), rather than the sluggish herd behavior that engineers design for. Indeed this is just your opinion. And the whole individualist hero do anything quip is unnecessary reactionary nonsense. This is about being prepared for an emergency in your facility which entails quickly and safely getting to an exit. > For example people are going to take some time to realize they need to take an alarm seriously, take a few minutes to collect their effects, shuffle to their cars, say goodbye to their coworkers, they will wait in traffic lines, etc. Are they doing this during a fire? They most certainly should not be. > ... but I don't think planning for workers to bug out in their cars is the right approach. This isn't about going George Castanza and pushing old ladies to the floor to get to a fire exit. This is about knowing or having a plan in place and taking it seriously. Maybe your company provides it, maybe you have to figure it out yourself. Point is, always be prepared.
- MrStonedOne 5y ago
  They had 2 days notice, not 20 minutes.

Clubber 5y ago

So the average warning time of a tornado is around 9 minutes. https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2021/06/16/tornado-warning-system-has-come-long-way-but-could-better/5152104001/ https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2021/06/16/tor... I suspect an even worse place to be during a tornado is a car on the road, which is where the workers would probably be if the employer sent them home. Some things just aren't preventable.

themaninthedark 5y ago

Not necessarily...110 people in a factory, say you have 30 minutes notice(article says 20!). Stopping the line : 5~10 minutes Collect stuff : 5 minutes Get to cars: 5 minutes Get out of gate: 5~10 minutes Oh look, now the news articles would all be asking why didn't the factory make the workers shelter in place instead of sending them out into a dangerous situation. A reasonable/decent employer has emergency plans appropriate for their area and trains their staff on them.

bastardoperator 5y ago
If you've worked in a production factory you know it doesn't take 5-10 minutes to shut down. Nearly all machines/facilities have emergency/instant shutdown capabilities. Looking at the size of this operation in the picture, I don't think it's 5 minutes to the parking lot or 5 minutes to get out either. A well prepared company would have already gone through a tornado evacuation scenario with staff ahead of time. I'll take my chances trying to drive away from a disaster with 15 minutes lead time versus hoping I survive the full impact of the tornado. Maybe I've watched too many stormchasers on twitter, but they're all alive and in cars/vans.
- themaninthedark 5y ago
  My 5~10 minutes figure was for stopping work on the line. Yes, the equipment has e-stops but you still have to get the worker to notice and engage them. Jill driving the forklift in shipping and receiving will probably notice the alarms and stop quickly but she might not be able to just walk away, she might have to reposition so she is not trapping someone else. James doing candle wick QC with his headphones on might not notice as fast. People will often ignore alarms if they don't see others around them acting. >Another reason that people do not respond to disaster signs is that they do not want to deviate from what others are doing. Humans are very social creatures and we tend to take our lead from other people. If the majority of people are not responding to warning signs then we will tend to conform to that behavior and follow their lead - no matter how dangerous it is. For example during a fire at a restaurant diners continue with their meal as if nothing was wrong. One diner even commented that “it was a bit uncomfortable really. The smoke and the sirens of fire engines.” http://clok.uclan.ac.uk/9573/1/Human%20Behaviour%20Paper%202012.pdf http://clok.uclan.ac.uk/9573/1/Human%20Behaviour%20Paper%202... Factories are all about routine and repetition, this can lead to a failure to act.
- counters 5y ago
  I sincerely hope you are never put in a situation where you have to consider evacuating versus sheltering in place and potentially taking a direct hit by a tornado, but PLEASE do not take your chances in a car. Footage from storm chasers is absolutely not representative of what you will almost certainly experience if you try to outrun a tornado in a car. If you're very, very lucky you might be in an area with no trees, a clear and obvious tornado with obvious apparent motion, and knowledge of the local roads which would allow you to quickly pick a single direction to drive in. More likely, though, you (a) won't know where the tornado is in relation to you, (b) won't be able to see it because it's rain-wrapped, and (c) won't be in a place where you can obviously drive quickly in a single, straight line to avoid its path. This doesn't even include other risks like intense winds reasonably far from the tornadic circulation which could roll your vehicle, debris, lightning, hail (especially if you wind up on the wrong side of the storm and core punch), etc. It isn't often that stormchasers perish in tornadoes, but it can and does happen, even to the best of them [1]. Storm chasers generally go to great lengths using significant knowledge, past experience, and real-time data to carefully position themselves in relation to not only the storm they are targeting, but other storms in the area in order to control their risk and overall safety. I'm a meteorologist and I grew up in the midwest, and while were absolutely drilled on tornado safety, "evacuations" were never part of that preparation. Again, I sincerely hope you never have to call upon the information from this post. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Samaras https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Samaras
MisterTea 5y ago
> Stopping the line : 5~10 minutes 0 minutes - No one should even think about shutting down gracefully in an emergency. GO. NOW. Your facility should have an emergency shutdown procedure. We do and it's called hit the emergency stop buttons and GTFO. > Collect stuff : 5 minutes 0 minutes. Leave it. EMERGENCY. > Get to cars: 5 minutes How far is your car and how big is this building? Granted my shop is small but I can get to my car in 30 seconds from my office at top speed. Your shop should have implemented and tested an evacuation procedure and designated safe meeting spot (If you can safely stand outside). We did, and actually simulated an emergency, found issues with the routes, iterated and retested. We are in fact prepared. Are you? > Get out of gate: 5~10 minutes This is the hard part. Not only do you have to fight your fellow employees but also hoards of other cars especially if you work in an industrial park. If you have a 4x4 use it and let the landscapers worry about the shrubbery and grass you tore up getting the fuck outta dodge. Drive through chain link fences if you have to. Just GO. NOW!
- mindslight 5y ago
  IMO your comment seems to be imagining some a individualist hero do-anything-at-all-costs scenario ("top speed"), rather than the sluggish herd behavior that engineers design for. For example people are going to take some time to realize they need to take an alarm seriously, take a few minutes to collect their effects, shuffle to their cars, say goodbye to their coworkers, they will wait in traffic lines, etc. I strongly agree there needs to be institutional concern paid to tornadoes, but I don't think planning for workers to bug out in their cars is the right approach.
  - MisterTea 5y ago
    > IMO your comment seems to be imagining some a individualist hero do-anything-at-all-costs scenario ("top speed"), rather than the sluggish herd behavior that engineers design for. Indeed this is just your opinion. And the whole individualist hero do anything quip is unnecessary reactionary nonsense. This is about being prepared for an emergency in your facility which entails quickly and safely getting to an exit. > For example people are going to take some time to realize they need to take an alarm seriously, take a few minutes to collect their effects, shuffle to their cars, say goodbye to their coworkers, they will wait in traffic lines, etc. Are they doing this during a fire? They most certainly should not be. > ... but I don't think planning for workers to bug out in their cars is the right approach. This isn't about going George Castanza and pushing old ladies to the floor to get to a fire exit. This is about knowing or having a plan in place and taking it seriously. Maybe your company provides it, maybe you have to figure it out yourself. Point is, always be prepared.
MrStonedOne 5y ago
They had 2 days notice, not 20 minutes.