3 ms·

In NYC, Hasidic men speak in Yiddish while the women speak in English. They both can use the other language of course, but as a second language and with differ

In NYC, Hasidic men speak in Yiddish while the women speak in English. They both can use the other language of course, but as a second language and with different accents.

arrow7000 5y ago
Was going to bring up this example. To add to this: hasidic men will often use Hebrew/Aramaic phrases used in the Talmud or its commentaries, whereas women, who are not permitted to study these materials, don't.
- ars 5y ago
  They are permitted to, they just usually don't bother. They would learn it as kids in school, and like kids everywhere they aren't volunteering for extra classes. Some women will choose to do so as adults, but at that point it doesn't become part of the vocabulary.
  - names_are_hard 5y ago
    If you mean that in your opinion (or according to your interpretation of Jewish law) they are permitted to...well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. If you mean that they believe themselves to be permitted to, this is definitely not the case. Talmud (ie Mishna/Gemara) outside of "agadata" is considered off-limits to women by all Haredi communities I'm aware of. In the past all Torah study was considered forbidden, but in the last few hundred years leniencies were found to enable some amount of Jewish religious education for girls. This was quite an innovation and was not taken lightly. Today, in some communities the original texts are all forbidden, but in most the Written Law (Tanach) is permitted why the Oral Law (Talmud) is not. Halacha (practical law) is usually allowed, as is theology, philosophy and ethics (Mussar, Chassidus, Rambam's "Shmoneh Prakim", etc) Bottom line: women don't use scholarly jargon because they are intentionally and expressly excluded from such activities.
  - arrow7000 5y ago
    This is simple false. In hasidic communities women learn mostly Tanach (the Old Testament), Halacha (practical laws) and Mussar (roughly: ethics). They absolutely do not learn the Talmud or its commentaries. In hasidic circles learning the Talmud – or any kind of in-depth abstract study – is said to lead women to "lightheadedness" aka promiscuity.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      Leaning the Talmud makes women promiscuous? I'm pretty sure that's not what deep theological learning is supposed to do...
      - golemiprague 5y ago
        Talmud is not theological learning, it is mostly the discussions leading to the coded law, so a bit like a combination of law and logic reasoning. As previous comments mentioned, women can study ethics and the bible which is more theological in nature.
      - names_are_hard 5y ago
        Just to be clear: the idea that Torah study leads women to promiscuity is not an invention of the GP (and may not be an opinion shared by them either). GP is quoting the Talmud. <talmud> The Mishna (Sotah 3.4) cites two Tannaitic opinions - the first says that a man is obligated to teach his daughter Torah so that she can understand the impact of the Sotah waters, the second counters that anyone who teaches his daughter Torah has taught her promiscuity. The Gemara (Sotah 21b) clarifies that women who study Torah can become "clever" or "sneaky". Rashi (ibid, 11th century) explains that understanding the laws and loopholes enables them to hide their promiscuity and get away with things they wouldn't otherwise get away with. For context the Mishna also comments that women are given to promiscuity by their nature, to the point where they would prefer promiscuity and a little wealth to a lot of wealth without promiscuity. </talmud> A few points from me: * The context here is not studying theology at all, but legal topics, which is what most of the Talmud consists of. Only a small portion of the Talmud is theology, religion, and philosophy * The Talmud is an anthology of many different opinions and ideas, often conflicting one another. There are passages in the Talmud that can be interpreted in a feminist light, but this is clearly not one of them. There is a lot of literature around this passage, and no small amount of controversy, but for the context of this thread - contemporary Haredi communities have interpreted this as forbidding women from studying the legal discourse aspects of the Torah while permitting the "lighter" topics, including theology. Other communities and movements interpret this differently or ignore it completely. * My experience is that although the text cites promiscuity as the reason for the prohibition, that's not really what people think it's about, at least not today. If you ask most Haredi men why their wives are not allowed to study Talmud, I don't think they'll cite the promiscuity risk. Certainly not if you ask the women. Instead you'll probably get an explanation about gender roles, domains of authority, perhaps some narrative about men's brains and women's brains, maybe something about tradition, or just a shrug. If they're particularly learned they'll quote you this Talmud passage.
names_are_hard 5y ago
Scrolled all the way down until I found this example, you saved me a top-level comment. Similarly, in yeshiva communities in the US men and women typically pronounce certain Hebrew vowels differently. I'm not sure what the historical context here is, but this always fascinated me. In any case, women and men speak in noticeably different ways about religious concepts, to the point where adopting the opposite gender's pronunciation stands out as "weird". In addition to pronunciation differences, using more Aramaic and certain Yiddish phrases is male-coded in this community.

In NYC, Hasidic men speak in Yiddish while the women speak in English. They both can use the other language of course, but as a second language and with different accents.

arrow7000 5y ago

Was going to bring up this example. To add to this: hasidic men will often use Hebrew/Aramaic phrases used in the Talmud or its commentaries, whereas women, who are not permitted to study these materials, don't.

ars 5y ago
They are permitted to, they just usually don't bother. They would learn it as kids in school, and like kids everywhere they aren't volunteering for extra classes. Some women will choose to do so as adults, but at that point it doesn't become part of the vocabulary.
- names_are_hard 5y ago
  If you mean that in your opinion (or according to your interpretation of Jewish law) they are permitted to...well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. If you mean that they believe themselves to be permitted to, this is definitely not the case. Talmud (ie Mishna/Gemara) outside of "agadata" is considered off-limits to women by all Haredi communities I'm aware of. In the past all Torah study was considered forbidden, but in the last few hundred years leniencies were found to enable some amount of Jewish religious education for girls. This was quite an innovation and was not taken lightly. Today, in some communities the original texts are all forbidden, but in most the Written Law (Tanach) is permitted why the Oral Law (Talmud) is not. Halacha (practical law) is usually allowed, as is theology, philosophy and ethics (Mussar, Chassidus, Rambam's "Shmoneh Prakim", etc) Bottom line: women don't use scholarly jargon because they are intentionally and expressly excluded from such activities.
- arrow7000 5y ago
  This is simple false. In hasidic communities women learn mostly Tanach (the Old Testament), Halacha (practical laws) and Mussar (roughly: ethics). They absolutely do not learn the Talmud or its commentaries. In hasidic circles learning the Talmud – or any kind of in-depth abstract study – is said to lead women to "lightheadedness" aka promiscuity.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    Leaning the Talmud makes women promiscuous? I'm pretty sure that's not what deep theological learning is supposed to do...
    - golemiprague 5y ago
      Talmud is not theological learning, it is mostly the discussions leading to the coded law, so a bit like a combination of law and logic reasoning. As previous comments mentioned, women can study ethics and the bible which is more theological in nature.
    - names_are_hard 5y ago
      Just to be clear: the idea that Torah study leads women to promiscuity is not an invention of the GP (and may not be an opinion shared by them either). GP is quoting the Talmud. <talmud> The Mishna (Sotah 3.4) cites two Tannaitic opinions - the first says that a man is obligated to teach his daughter Torah so that she can understand the impact of the Sotah waters, the second counters that anyone who teaches his daughter Torah has taught her promiscuity. The Gemara (Sotah 21b) clarifies that women who study Torah can become "clever" or "sneaky". Rashi (ibid, 11th century) explains that understanding the laws and loopholes enables them to hide their promiscuity and get away with things they wouldn't otherwise get away with. For context the Mishna also comments that women are given to promiscuity by their nature, to the point where they would prefer promiscuity and a little wealth to a lot of wealth without promiscuity. </talmud> A few points from me: * The context here is not studying theology at all, but legal topics, which is what most of the Talmud consists of. Only a small portion of the Talmud is theology, religion, and philosophy * The Talmud is an anthology of many different opinions and ideas, often conflicting one another. There are passages in the Talmud that can be interpreted in a feminist light, but this is clearly not one of them. There is a lot of literature around this passage, and no small amount of controversy, but for the context of this thread - contemporary Haredi communities have interpreted this as forbidding women from studying the legal discourse aspects of the Torah while permitting the "lighter" topics, including theology. Other communities and movements interpret this differently or ignore it completely. * My experience is that although the text cites promiscuity as the reason for the prohibition, that's not really what people think it's about, at least not today. If you ask most Haredi men why their wives are not allowed to study Talmud, I don't think they'll cite the promiscuity risk. Certainly not if you ask the women. Instead you'll probably get an explanation about gender roles, domains of authority, perhaps some narrative about men's brains and women's brains, maybe something about tradition, or just a shrug. If they're particularly learned they'll quote you this Talmud passage.

names_are_hard 5y ago

Scrolled all the way down until I found this example, you saved me a top-level comment. Similarly, in yeshiva communities in the US men and women typically pronounce certain Hebrew vowels differently. I'm not sure what the historical context here is, but this always fascinated me. In any case, women and men speak in noticeably different ways about religious concepts, to the point where adopting the opposite gender's pronunciation stands out as "weird". In addition to pronunciation differences, using more Aramaic and certain Yiddish phrases is male-coded in this community.