4 ms·

During the early pandemic Singapore Airlines canceled my flight and gave me a flight credit. I went in circles with them and Orbitz saying I wanted my money bac

by tdeck 5y ago

During the early pandemic Singapore Airlines canceled my flight and gave me a flight credit. I went in circles with them and Orbitz saying I wanted my money back, to no avail. So I filed a chargeback with Capital One. The airline responded to the dispute saying the ticket I bought was non-refundable. I replied pointing out that means it's not refundable if I cancel, not that the airline can refuse service I paid for and not refund me. I also attached a recent notice from the DoT saying that airlines must refund customers in my situation, and that the specific practice in question was illegal. Capital One sided with the airline and closed my case. Guess you can't depend on chargebacks like I thought you could.

mnw21cam 5y ago
That's what the small claims court is for.
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  Don't they cover themselfs with mandatory arbitration contracts?
CPLX 5y ago
> Capital One sided with the airline and closed my case. Guess you can't depend on chargebacks like I thought you could. Yes people tend to have a slightly delusional view of how effective chargebacks can be based on limited experiences. If you're fighting with a small merchant like a local store or a non famous online merchant you're going to win basically every time. If you're fighting with a rental car company, an airline, a hotel chain, a household name company, or similar, it's an entirely different story. The interaction has much more to do with who's more valuable to the card issuer than who's right.
sofixa 5y ago
Technically it was not the airline refusing service, there was a force majeure, and many insurances have explicit exceptions for stuff like pandemics, wars, etc.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  If I was tdeck, I would contact US Dept of Transportation. There was specifically a special directive by US Dept of Transportation directing airlines to refund customers for any flights that were modified or canceled after pandemic restrictions started in Mar 2020. https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-department-transportation-issues-enforcement-notice-clarifying-air-carrier-refund https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-department-t... https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/ticket-refunds https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/ticket-refunds As of now, they even explicitly say non refundable tickets are refundable if airlines cancel: https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/refunds https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer... > Non-refundable tickets - Passengers who purchase non-refundable tickets are not entitled to a refund unless the airline makes a promise to provide a refund or the airline cancels a flight or makes a significant schedule change. I am also confused how Orbitz would be involved in tdeck’s situation. Either they paid Orbitz, or they paid Singapore Airlines, but either way only one of them would be able to refund them.
  - tdeck 5y ago
    In fact this is how it got resolved, I filed a complaint with some agency (I can't recall which) and SQ coincidentally changed their policy and refunded me. The very notice you linked is the one I sent with my chargeback. As for Orbitz, I used them to book the ticket, and SQ's customer service told me they couldn't refund me because they had a policy that only the agent could modify the reservation. When I tried to contact Orbitz they just told me I would need to talk to the airline.
- tdeck 5y ago
  The flight (to Japan) wasn't actually banned, it just became unprofitable to run that day. But flights are a time-sensitive thing! Imagine if you ordered a pizza and the restaurant called you back and said it wasn't convenient that night because of car trouble, but they'd keep your money and in a few months when it made more sense they'd deliver your pizza. That's ridiculous and you'd have a right to demand your money back.
creamytaco 5y ago
I guess you found out you can't rely on Capital One. Never had a problem with AMEX.
- zerocount 5y ago
  First time I was late paying AMEX they raised my interest rate north of 25%. They could legally do so, but they were the only card I had that did it so quickly; just one day late. Discover was my favorite. They had a forgiveness policy and wouldn't raise your rate just because another card did. And their website was very friendly to use.
  - creamytaco 5y ago
    I guess that's how they make money and can afford great customer service, which is also something I'm fine with: I couldn't care less what their interest rate is since I'll never ever pay interest. If that's on the agenda, then I'd look somewhere else as you say.
  - throwaway946513 5y ago
    Their app is blasted easy to use for payments & viewing account information as well. I despise the Chase app where my auto loan sits, as it never loads correctly on my iPhone, or takes drastically longer. Whereas the Discover app and pages load without problem.
- ralph84 5y ago
  Yep. Some companies handled pandemic cancellations much better than others. Never forget(tm).
arlcode 5y ago
That's why I (in Europe) pay with SEPA Direct Debit whenever possible. It has a legally mandated no question asked chargeback function. (In fact it's automated and two clicks away). Of course there are expensive consequences when that system is abused.
- faeyanpiraat 5y ago
  How does that work? Is it more like a wire transfer, or a CC payment? What are the expensive consequences you are talking about?
  - sofixa 5y ago
    It's a type of wire transfer (in euros).
  - MinorTom 5y ago
    It's a pull from your bank account. You give the merchant your account details and sign* an authorization and they "pull" the money from your account. Afterward you can cancel the charge without giving a reason for a few weeks, or if the charge was unauthorized for up to 2 years. The only downside compared to chargebacks is that you are not protected in case of insolvency of the merchant.** > What are the expensive consequences you are talking about? The system offers no security for the merchant - in fact cancelled charges cost a fee, even if the charge was completely valid. * yes - physical signature on paper, except when paying online ** this is a topic for a full comment on it's own, but here's the gist: Under German law you can't "take back" your money from an company that has filed for bankruptcy - in fact even payments made to you before the filing might be clawed back by the administrator - which means that you will receive (and customers from insolvent airlines have received) an angry letter demanding the money back. With chargebacks this is less likely to happen as the chargeback will be paid for by the merchant's bank, not the merchant directly, but the legal situation is unclear.

by tdeck 5y ago

mnw21cam 5y ago

That's what the small claims court is for.

hellbannedguy 5y ago
Don't they cover themselfs with mandatory arbitration contracts?

CPLX 5y ago

> Capital One sided with the airline and closed my case. Guess you can't depend on chargebacks like I thought you could. Yes people tend to have a slightly delusional view of how effective chargebacks can be based on limited experiences. If you're fighting with a small merchant like a local store or a non famous online merchant you're going to win basically every time. If you're fighting with a rental car company, an airline, a hotel chain, a household name company, or similar, it's an entirely different story. The interaction has much more to do with who's more valuable to the card issuer than who's right.

sofixa 5y ago

Technically it was not the airline refusing service, there was a force majeure, and many insurances have explicit exceptions for stuff like pandemics, wars, etc.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
If I was tdeck, I would contact US Dept of Transportation. There was specifically a special directive by US Dept of Transportation directing airlines to refund customers for any flights that were modified or canceled after pandemic restrictions started in Mar 2020. https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-department-transportation-issues-enforcement-notice-clarifying-air-carrier-refund https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-department-t... https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/ticket-refunds https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/ticket-refunds As of now, they even explicitly say non refundable tickets are refundable if airlines cancel: https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/refunds https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer... > Non-refundable tickets - Passengers who purchase non-refundable tickets are not entitled to a refund unless the airline makes a promise to provide a refund or the airline cancels a flight or makes a significant schedule change. I am also confused how Orbitz would be involved in tdeck’s situation. Either they paid Orbitz, or they paid Singapore Airlines, but either way only one of them would be able to refund them.
- tdeck 5y ago
  In fact this is how it got resolved, I filed a complaint with some agency (I can't recall which) and SQ coincidentally changed their policy and refunded me. The very notice you linked is the one I sent with my chargeback. As for Orbitz, I used them to book the ticket, and SQ's customer service told me they couldn't refund me because they had a policy that only the agent could modify the reservation. When I tried to contact Orbitz they just told me I would need to talk to the airline.
tdeck 5y ago
The flight (to Japan) wasn't actually banned, it just became unprofitable to run that day. But flights are a time-sensitive thing! Imagine if you ordered a pizza and the restaurant called you back and said it wasn't convenient that night because of car trouble, but they'd keep your money and in a few months when it made more sense they'd deliver your pizza. That's ridiculous and you'd have a right to demand your money back.

creamytaco 5y ago

I guess you found out you can't rely on Capital One. Never had a problem with AMEX.

zerocount 5y ago
First time I was late paying AMEX they raised my interest rate north of 25%. They could legally do so, but they were the only card I had that did it so quickly; just one day late. Discover was my favorite. They had a forgiveness policy and wouldn't raise your rate just because another card did. And their website was very friendly to use.
- creamytaco 5y ago
  I guess that's how they make money and can afford great customer service, which is also something I'm fine with: I couldn't care less what their interest rate is since I'll never ever pay interest. If that's on the agenda, then I'd look somewhere else as you say.
- throwaway946513 5y ago
  Their app is blasted easy to use for payments & viewing account information as well. I despise the Chase app where my auto loan sits, as it never loads correctly on my iPhone, or takes drastically longer. Whereas the Discover app and pages load without problem.
ralph84 5y ago
Yep. Some companies handled pandemic cancellations much better than others. Never forget(tm).

arlcode 5y ago

That's why I (in Europe) pay with SEPA Direct Debit whenever possible. It has a legally mandated no question asked chargeback function. (In fact it's automated and two clicks away). Of course there are expensive consequences when that system is abused.

faeyanpiraat 5y ago
How does that work? Is it more like a wire transfer, or a CC payment? What are the expensive consequences you are talking about?
- sofixa 5y ago
  It's a type of wire transfer (in euros).
- MinorTom 5y ago
  It's a pull from your bank account. You give the merchant your account details and sign* an authorization and they "pull" the money from your account. Afterward you can cancel the charge without giving a reason for a few weeks, or if the charge was unauthorized for up to 2 years. The only downside compared to chargebacks is that you are not protected in case of insolvency of the merchant.** > What are the expensive consequences you are talking about? The system offers no security for the merchant - in fact cancelled charges cost a fee, even if the charge was completely valid. * yes - physical signature on paper, except when paying online ** this is a topic for a full comment on it's own, but here's the gist: Under German law you can't "take back" your money from an company that has filed for bankruptcy - in fact even payments made to you before the filing might be clawed back by the administrator - which means that you will receive (and customers from insolvent airlines have received) an angry letter demanding the money back. With chargebacks this is less likely to happen as the chargeback will be paid for by the merchant's bank, not the merchant directly, but the legal situation is unclear.