8 ms·

Social mobility is very different than economic mobility. It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a goo

Social mobility is very different than economic mobility. It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. Heck, I did it without any college. Social mobility is a different story. I was raised in a rural area, which is essentially a social class of its own. Since becoming an adult, I've found myself gravitating towards working-class people. I like the bluntness, the awareness of real issues, and the family values. I make more money than many of the yuppies who live a mile away, but socially, I'm several rungs "below" them. I could get a nice haircut, mow my lawn properly, get divorced, and fit right in, if I chose to, but I don't want to. I think you'll find many lower-class Americans wouldn't, even if they knew how to. Edit: by "Working class", I mean blue-collar and not wealthy. The salary cap is a little higher than the traditional definition, but I think it's a more accurate representation of middle America.

baby 5y ago
Ah, survivor bias
- rpmisms 5y ago
  See my other replies, I'm aware of this, baby.
- mynameishere 5y ago
  Not even that. Just sheltered fool bias.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - rpmisms 5y ago
    I was running around my nearest city at age 14, looking for work. I got in fights at bus stops, got mugged once*, slept on benches when I missed a ride a couple of times. Sheltered, yes, ignorant, no. I know what being hungry is like, I remember how weird it was to wear brand-new clothes. I'm not complaining, it was all perfectly normal to me at the time, but I'm not talking down at the poors, I'm talking about who I am. *Mugged once and then learned how not to get mugged. People tried after that, didn't go well.
postpawl 5y ago
Only 8% of people in the United States make more than $100k: https://graphics.wsj.com/what-percent/ https://graphics.wsj.com/what-percent/ Don't know if I'd call it easy if it's something only 8 out of 100 people do. It also depends on the area. $100k in SF is a lot different than $100k in the mid-west.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > Only 8% of people in the United States make more than $100k How does the percentage change when you look at people with full-time jobs? With full-time professional jobs? Who are actively trying to optimise their income instead of for example prioritising family? I'd guess it becomes much larger very quickly.
  - redelbee 5y ago
    According to the 2020 census data linked below the percentage increases to around 24% for individuals who worked full time all year. I don’t think there is any easy way to find the more specific groups you mentioned. That’s not a large enough increase to consider making six figures as easy as “prioritizing” it or whatever you’re proposing. https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/tables/pinc-01/2021/pinc01_2_1_1.xlsx https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/tables/pinc-01/... In any case what you’re proposing is selection bias. No one should be surprised that people who work full time are more likely to make six figures than those who don’t. And yes, if you cherry pick a group of “professionals” who receive larger salaries of course the percentage will increase. And it’s back to survivorship bias for the “prioritization” examples you mentioned. Unless you happen to have a random sample of people who don’t make six figures but would prefer to.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      I think you've just proved yourself that making 100k is extremely achievable in the US (1/4) for someone who even just bothers to turn up full-time.
      - 5y ago
booleandilemma 5y ago
Is six figures really that much any more? I’m talking about 1xx,xxx, which is what most people mean when they say six figures. If you’re living in a place like New York, California, or even say, Jersey, what does a low 6 figures really get you?
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >what does a low 6 figures really get you? A house 50min (but not in a nice neighborhood, thank fucking god, I don't want to live among "nice people") from Boston and not generally having to worry about money (i.e. I'm not house poor in the slightest). Though I did buy a couple years before 'rona and the inflation so I probably would be renting today.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  Given that median household income in NYC is around $70k, I'd say it buys you quite a bit.
rfrey 5y ago
This is not your main point, but in the spirit of Americans overestimating social mobility, you may be overestimating "family values" among the working class. According to the 2015 US census, the share of people who have been divorced at least once is 46% (poor), 41% (working class) and 30% (middle and upper class). Similarly, people who report they are "very happy" in marriage are 54% (poor), 56% (working class) and 65% (middle and upper class). (https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-marriage-divide-how-and-why-working-class-families-are-more-fragile-today https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-marriage-divide-how-and-why-w...). I wasn't able to turn up any stats on lawn care though.
- rpmisms 5y ago
  I'm telling an anecdotal story, and in my area the working class is very Catholic, black, or both. YMMV, not valid in California.
  - mitigating 5y ago
    California has one of the lowest divorce rates in the entire country https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/states-with-the-highest-divorce-rates https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/states-with...
    - rpmisms 5y ago
      California is ~1 point below the national average in marriages and divorces. By comparison, Maine is 4 points over the marriage average and 3 points under the divorce average. I should have remembered my audience and not made a joke about California's differences from the rest of the country. https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/12/united-states-marriage-and-divorce-rates-declined-last-10-years.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/12/united-states...
      - torbTurret 5y ago
        Why is everyone not from CA so obsessed with it? Why did you feel the need to bring it up more than once?
endisneigh 5y ago
> Americans overestimate social mobility in their country (economist.com) >> HOW likely is someone to move up the economic ladder? > It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. > https://personalfinancedata.com/income-percentile-calculator/?min_age=40&max_age=&income=100000#results https://personalfinancedata.com/income-percentile-calculator... >> An income of $100,000 for ages 40 to 100 ranks at the 89.82% good to see evidence the article is correct in the wild.
- pmorici 5y ago
  Why are you citing individual income instead of house hold income? A household income of 100k puts you in the 66th percentile. https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    I cited individual income because that's what the comment I quoted was referring to?
    - pmorici 5y ago
      I don't think they did.
mrtksn 5y ago
I guess that’s what makes Trump “the peoples billionaire” but I don’t think it’s a class. It’s more of a function of how much you embrace the norms of formal education and institutions. This defines who do you trust, what do you care about and how do you think. I’m inclined to think that this is a personality trait. Surely, personality is shaped by the environment too.
rectang 5y ago
> It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. If you want to call what the article measures "economic mobility", OK. Regardless of terminology, the point is that Americans think it's easier than it actually is to go from the bottom quintile of income to the top. If "it's not hugely difficult" translates to "more than a 7.8% chance of going from bottom quintile to top", then you'd be among them.
hammock 5y ago
>Social mobility is very different than economic mobility Truly. And unfortunately while the headline says "social mobility" the article looks at economic mobility, specifically income quintiles (as opposed to wealth accumulation).
Swizec 5y ago
A few lessons for social mobility I learned while joining the SF techie class, coming here from a relatively poor country in Europe. 1. If Americans can’t read your emotes they put you in a “Uh this feels weird, that person is an emotionless robot” camp. You have to practice 2. It is not okay to ask “What’s that?” when someone proudly mentions which college they went to (because as a European you only recognize 4 or 5) 3. Talking about money with upper middle class people is impolite. They have never had money problems and do not understand why anyone would ever talk about money 4. You should instead talk about your investments 5. Saying “Charity? That’s what taxes is for” is considered trolling 6. Rent and real estate are the only times it’s socially acceptable to say “Damn, life is expensive” 7. You have to talk about helping the less fortunate 8. It is not okay to directly help the less fortunate on your street, wouldn’t want to make them feel like it’s okay to be there 9. You can only say positive things about your boss (because you aim to become them) 10. It is okay to say negative things about your boss’s boss’s boss 11. Every acquaintance is “a friend” 12. Real friends are “best/close friend” 13. Everyone hires cleaners and similar help, this is not considered a luxury 14. Everything is always awesome 15. You don’t fail, you are given an opportunity to grow
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jollybean 5y ago
  To be fair, #5 is kind of trolling. Taxes are not 'charity'. Also, the 'money talk' thing - that's Anglo, not American, and it's nothing to do with not understanding low income, it's basically avoidance of blunt status bragging, it's considered a bit crude. Which is why you'd have to talk about your investments in order to humble brag.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    > To be fair, #5 is kind of trolling. Taxes are not 'charity'. The point of #5 is that in a number of other countries, people believe that taxes should pay for the social services required by the unfortunate, the sick, the indigent, and so forth. Charity plays a minor role, because it is the job of the state to take care of its citizens.
TulliusCicero 5y ago
> Social mobility is very different than economic mobility. It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. Heck, I did it without any college. And yet, many people assert that it is indeed hard for them. The easiest way to compare this between countries is to look at actual economic/social mobility, in the form of poor people becoming affluent, affluent people becoming poor, etc. Rather than theorycrafting or going off anecdotes, see what’s actually happening. And the data says that the US doesn’t do so well here, IIRC.
Bukhmanizer 5y ago
Economic mobility is considered a type of social mobility: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility
jollybean 5y ago
"t's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field." I think that's true for White and Asian folks. But the thing about America is that it has two, giant categories of people in a 'different lane' - notably those in poor Black urban neighbourhoods, and new Latino migrants particularly in Texas/Cali where they are highly segregated from the rest of society. 'Technically' you might argue they have that opportunity, but it's not really the case if they live in a situation wherein that reality has never dawned upon them, and their entire life context is skewed towards something else. My distant cousin married a Latino man, their daughter was 17 and was making 'big money' helping her mother at the cleaning service. And by 'big money' I mean 'some money' for a kind of poor family, a 17 year old with any cash at all was living large. She had absolutely zero concept or aspiration of going to college, nobody she knew did that and was really keen on working, because it made her money and wasn't even keen on finishing high school. The 'cultural gaps' between these communities are gigantic, it's like being in a different country. America probably is 'technically the most open' but pragmatically, it's not the case.
- rpmisms 5y ago
  I would argue that the people in those ecosystems have much of the opportunity afforded to me, they just don't know about how possible it really is. I personally work at a Floridian company, and have a bunch of coworkers who come from the exact backgrounds you talk about. It's totally possible, it just has to be a known opportunity, not a pie-in-the-sky dream.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    Yes, it's definitely possible. But your personal experience more or less indicates that it can be done, not that it commonly is. "it just has to be a known opportunity" - and this is the rub. I think that this is far, far more than simply 'informing them they can go to college'. It's an entire life outlook, set of conscientious behaviours, that's almost impossible to contemplate if you're completely outside of positive conditions. It is true that almost anyone can go to almost any public school, get into a hald-decent Uni and study STEM, and 'have a decent job'. But getting people into that modality is much more easier said than done, it's probably the 'hard part' actually.
lifeformed 5y ago
> It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. That's if you also had a healthy learning environment at school and home, can afford college, and have a healthy early development to be able to grow up into an sufficiently smart child. A lot of people in the bottom 20% don't have those initial conditions.
- anonfornoreason 5y ago
  or go into one of the many trades that pay north of $100k with no college education and just provided on the job training. trades right now that are struggling to find applicants.
  - analog31 5y ago
    The trades are oversold in the US. Many of them are physically demanding if not dangerous. Many of them are dominated by smaller businesses that are practically exempt from labor law enforcement. Many are strongly dependent on the housing cycle. Since many of those businesses are also family-owned, a person without the right connections can face an uphill battle getting a decent job. I believe that the opioid epidemic started out as a pain epidemic, with a population of people suffering chronic pain that they acquired from their jobs. I've hired people to work at my house, and the ones who are my age tend to be hobbling and broken. I'd be more enthusiastic about the trades if I lived in a country with better unions, labor laws, health care, and safety net. Now, some of the better trades are medicine and nursing related. Those tend to be indoors, in a better regulated workplace. Or computer programming.
    - anonfornoreason 5y ago
      you are moving the goalpost here. good luck finding a job paying well that's not a trade or a technical job requiring a college degree. grew up blue collar, still spend plenty of time with blue collar folks. just like there are fat unhealthy desk workers, there are beaten up tradesmen who didn't take care of their bodies. there are also healthy examples of both. finally, these are required jobs that make our society function. hard to say they are oversold while most of the people on this forum make the proverbial fourteenth attempt at Uber for dogwalking. myself included.
WalterBright 5y ago
> I like the bluntness, the awareness of real issues, and the family values I'm sure that working class people are more aware of issues that affect them. I'm also sure the same applies to poor, middle class, and wealthy people. They're all real issues.

baby 5y ago

Ah, survivor bias

rpmisms 5y ago
See my other replies, I'm aware of this, baby.
mynameishere 5y ago
Not even that. Just sheltered fool bias.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- rpmisms 5y ago
  I was running around my nearest city at age 14, looking for work. I got in fights at bus stops, got mugged once*, slept on benches when I missed a ride a couple of times. Sheltered, yes, ignorant, no. I know what being hungry is like, I remember how weird it was to wear brand-new clothes. I'm not complaining, it was all perfectly normal to me at the time, but I'm not talking down at the poors, I'm talking about who I am. *Mugged once and then learned how not to get mugged. People tried after that, didn't go well.

postpawl 5y ago

Only 8% of people in the United States make more than $100k: https://graphics.wsj.com/what-percent/ https://graphics.wsj.com/what-percent/ Don't know if I'd call it easy if it's something only 8 out of 100 people do. It also depends on the area. $100k in SF is a lot different than $100k in the mid-west.

chrisseaton 5y ago
> Only 8% of people in the United States make more than $100k How does the percentage change when you look at people with full-time jobs? With full-time professional jobs? Who are actively trying to optimise their income instead of for example prioritising family? I'd guess it becomes much larger very quickly.
- redelbee 5y ago
  According to the 2020 census data linked below the percentage increases to around 24% for individuals who worked full time all year. I don’t think there is any easy way to find the more specific groups you mentioned. That’s not a large enough increase to consider making six figures as easy as “prioritizing” it or whatever you’re proposing. https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/tables/pinc-01/2021/pinc01_2_1_1.xlsx https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/tables/pinc-01/... In any case what you’re proposing is selection bias. No one should be surprised that people who work full time are more likely to make six figures than those who don’t. And yes, if you cherry pick a group of “professionals” who receive larger salaries of course the percentage will increase. And it’s back to survivorship bias for the “prioritization” examples you mentioned. Unless you happen to have a random sample of people who don’t make six figures but would prefer to.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    I think you've just proved yourself that making 100k is extremely achievable in the US (1/4) for someone who even just bothers to turn up full-time.
    - 5y ago

booleandilemma 5y ago

Is six figures really that much any more? I’m talking about 1xx,xxx, which is what most people mean when they say six figures. If you’re living in a place like New York, California, or even say, Jersey, what does a low 6 figures really get you?

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>what does a low 6 figures really get you? A house 50min (but not in a nice neighborhood, thank fucking god, I don't want to live among "nice people") from Boston and not generally having to worry about money (i.e. I'm not house poor in the slightest). Though I did buy a couple years before 'rona and the inflation so I probably would be renting today.
PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
Given that median household income in NYC is around $70k, I'd say it buys you quite a bit.

rfrey 5y ago

This is not your main point, but in the spirit of Americans overestimating social mobility, you may be overestimating "family values" among the working class. According to the 2015 US census, the share of people who have been divorced at least once is 46% (poor), 41% (working class) and 30% (middle and upper class). Similarly, people who report they are "very happy" in marriage are 54% (poor), 56% (working class) and 65% (middle and upper class). (https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-marriage-divide-how-and-why-working-class-families-are-more-fragile-today https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-marriage-divide-how-and-why-w...). I wasn't able to turn up any stats on lawn care though.

rpmisms 5y ago
I'm telling an anecdotal story, and in my area the working class is very Catholic, black, or both. YMMV, not valid in California.
- mitigating 5y ago
  California has one of the lowest divorce rates in the entire country https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/states-with-the-highest-divorce-rates https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/states-with...
  - rpmisms 5y ago
    California is ~1 point below the national average in marriages and divorces. By comparison, Maine is 4 points over the marriage average and 3 points under the divorce average. I should have remembered my audience and not made a joke about California's differences from the rest of the country. https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/12/united-states-marriage-and-divorce-rates-declined-last-10-years.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/12/united-states...
    - torbTurret 5y ago
      Why is everyone not from CA so obsessed with it? Why did you feel the need to bring it up more than once?

endisneigh 5y ago

> Americans overestimate social mobility in their country (economist.com) >> HOW likely is someone to move up the economic ladder? > It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. > https://personalfinancedata.com/income-percentile-calculator/?min_age=40&max_age=&income=100000#results https://personalfinancedata.com/income-percentile-calculator... >> An income of $100,000 for ages 40 to 100 ranks at the 89.82% good to see evidence the article is correct in the wild.

pmorici 5y ago
Why are you citing individual income instead of house hold income? A household income of 100k puts you in the 66th percentile. https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/
- endisneigh 5y ago
  I cited individual income because that's what the comment I quoted was referring to?
  - pmorici 5y ago
    I don't think they did.

mrtksn 5y ago

I guess that’s what makes Trump “the peoples billionaire” but I don’t think it’s a class. It’s more of a function of how much you embrace the norms of formal education and institutions. This defines who do you trust, what do you care about and how do you think. I’m inclined to think that this is a personality trait. Surely, personality is shaped by the environment too.

rectang 5y ago

> It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. If you want to call what the article measures "economic mobility", OK. Regardless of terminology, the point is that Americans think it's easier than it actually is to go from the bottom quintile of income to the top. If "it's not hugely difficult" translates to "more than a 7.8% chance of going from bottom quintile to top", then you'd be among them.

hammock 5y ago

>Social mobility is very different than economic mobility Truly. And unfortunately while the headline says "social mobility" the article looks at economic mobility, specifically income quintiles (as opposed to wealth accumulation).

Swizec 5y ago

A few lessons for social mobility I learned while joining the SF techie class, coming here from a relatively poor country in Europe. 1. If Americans can’t read your emotes they put you in a “Uh this feels weird, that person is an emotionless robot” camp. You have to practice 2. It is not okay to ask “What’s that?” when someone proudly mentions which college they went to (because as a European you only recognize 4 or 5) 3. Talking about money with upper middle class people is impolite. They have never had money problems and do not understand why anyone would ever talk about money 4. You should instead talk about your investments 5. Saying “Charity? That’s what taxes is for” is considered trolling 6. Rent and real estate are the only times it’s socially acceptable to say “Damn, life is expensive” 7. You have to talk about helping the less fortunate 8. It is not okay to directly help the less fortunate on your street, wouldn’t want to make them feel like it’s okay to be there 9. You can only say positive things about your boss (because you aim to become them) 10. It is okay to say negative things about your boss’s boss’s boss 11. Every acquaintance is “a friend” 12. Real friends are “best/close friend” 13. Everyone hires cleaners and similar help, this is not considered a luxury 14. Everything is always awesome 15. You don’t fail, you are given an opportunity to grow

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jollybean 5y ago
To be fair, #5 is kind of trolling. Taxes are not 'charity'. Also, the 'money talk' thing - that's Anglo, not American, and it's nothing to do with not understanding low income, it's basically avoidance of blunt status bragging, it's considered a bit crude. Which is why you'd have to talk about your investments in order to humble brag.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  > To be fair, #5 is kind of trolling. Taxes are not 'charity'. The point of #5 is that in a number of other countries, people believe that taxes should pay for the social services required by the unfortunate, the sick, the indigent, and so forth. Charity plays a minor role, because it is the job of the state to take care of its citizens.

TulliusCicero 5y ago

> Social mobility is very different than economic mobility. It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. Heck, I did it without any college. And yet, many people assert that it is indeed hard for them. The easiest way to compare this between countries is to look at actual economic/social mobility, in the form of poor people becoming affluent, affluent people becoming poor, etc. Rather than theorycrafting or going off anecdotes, see what’s actually happening. And the data says that the US doesn’t do so well here, IIRC.

Bukhmanizer 5y ago

Economic mobility is considered a type of social mobility: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility

jollybean 5y ago

"t's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field." I think that's true for White and Asian folks. But the thing about America is that it has two, giant categories of people in a 'different lane' - notably those in poor Black urban neighbourhoods, and new Latino migrants particularly in Texas/Cali where they are highly segregated from the rest of society. 'Technically' you might argue they have that opportunity, but it's not really the case if they live in a situation wherein that reality has never dawned upon them, and their entire life context is skewed towards something else. My distant cousin married a Latino man, their daughter was 17 and was making 'big money' helping her mother at the cleaning service. And by 'big money' I mean 'some money' for a kind of poor family, a 17 year old with any cash at all was living large. She had absolutely zero concept or aspiration of going to college, nobody she knew did that and was really keen on working, because it made her money and wasn't even keen on finishing high school. The 'cultural gaps' between these communities are gigantic, it's like being in a different country. America probably is 'technically the most open' but pragmatically, it's not the case.

rpmisms 5y ago
I would argue that the people in those ecosystems have much of the opportunity afforded to me, they just don't know about how possible it really is. I personally work at a Floridian company, and have a bunch of coworkers who come from the exact backgrounds you talk about. It's totally possible, it just has to be a known opportunity, not a pie-in-the-sky dream.
- jollybean 5y ago
  Yes, it's definitely possible. But your personal experience more or less indicates that it can be done, not that it commonly is. "it just has to be a known opportunity" - and this is the rub. I think that this is far, far more than simply 'informing them they can go to college'. It's an entire life outlook, set of conscientious behaviours, that's almost impossible to contemplate if you're completely outside of positive conditions. It is true that almost anyone can go to almost any public school, get into a hald-decent Uni and study STEM, and 'have a decent job'. But getting people into that modality is much more easier said than done, it's probably the 'hard part' actually.

lifeformed 5y ago

> It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. That's if you also had a healthy learning environment at school and home, can afford college, and have a healthy early development to be able to grow up into an sufficiently smart child. A lot of people in the bottom 20% don't have those initial conditions.

anonfornoreason 5y ago
or go into one of the many trades that pay north of $100k with no college education and just provided on the job training. trades right now that are struggling to find applicants.
- analog31 5y ago
  The trades are oversold in the US. Many of them are physically demanding if not dangerous. Many of them are dominated by smaller businesses that are practically exempt from labor law enforcement. Many are strongly dependent on the housing cycle. Since many of those businesses are also family-owned, a person without the right connections can face an uphill battle getting a decent job. I believe that the opioid epidemic started out as a pain epidemic, with a population of people suffering chronic pain that they acquired from their jobs. I've hired people to work at my house, and the ones who are my age tend to be hobbling and broken. I'd be more enthusiastic about the trades if I lived in a country with better unions, labor laws, health care, and safety net. Now, some of the better trades are medicine and nursing related. Those tend to be indoors, in a better regulated workplace. Or computer programming.
  - anonfornoreason 5y ago
    you are moving the goalpost here. good luck finding a job paying well that's not a trade or a technical job requiring a college degree. grew up blue collar, still spend plenty of time with blue collar folks. just like there are fat unhealthy desk workers, there are beaten up tradesmen who didn't take care of their bodies. there are also healthy examples of both. finally, these are required jobs that make our society function. hard to say they are oversold while most of the people on this forum make the proverbial fourteenth attempt at Uber for dogwalking. myself included.

WalterBright 5y ago

> I like the bluntness, the awareness of real issues, and the family values I'm sure that working class people are more aware of issues that affect them. I'm also sure the same applies to poor, middle class, and wealthy people. They're all real issues.