7 ms·

Every Schubert Song, Ranked: Listening to 40 hours of Lieder

72 points by spekcular 5y ago

jvandonsel 5y ago
I strongly disagree with Mr. Brown regarding 'Alinde' (D. 904). It is transcendent. I invite him to step into the alley with me so that we can discuss this further.
HPsquared 5y ago
Die Forelle (the Trout) is the only one I know, very catchy: https://youtu.be/NF9DrUXowBo https://youtu.be/NF9DrUXowBo Also adapted as a quintet: https://youtu.be/HwbWvGtaZGo https://youtu.be/HwbWvGtaZGo
akdor1154 5y ago
(completely off-topic, but commenters on this thread likely to know) Anyone know a good recommendation system for classical, or even better, cross-genre recommendations? E.g. a project/product that is hosted and ready to use / subscribe to. Where I could put in "I like pieces composed by Ravel and Holst, and I also like things performed by Remy le Beouf", and it would actually give me sensible recs.. Spotify seems to rely on popularity too much, which doesn't really work here (I get a bunch of Best Piano for Chill Work compilation albums and not much else). Is Pandora's rec system any good here or does it fall into the same trap? Any other projects people have seen?
- bryanlarsen 5y ago
  The trick for Spotify is to start from something obscure that you like. Anything popular will have the problem you describe Don't know how it would work for classical, but it works great for jazz.
- Bud 5y ago
  Make friends with a professional classical musician, and ask them! We're reasonably fun people. ;)
- zokier 5y ago
  You might want to try out idagio. Unfortunately primephonic got acquired by apple so they are out of the game these days.
- powersnail 5y ago
  You can go to classical music focused forums or Reddit and ask for recommendations. As far as I’ve tried, no recommendation system beats human enthusiasts when it comes to music discovery.
- jb_s 5y ago
  The youtube algorithm can do alright here. The key is a recommendation system that actually segments you into the right sort of place, spotify doesn't really work properly for me in this way. Other than that I have no idea. I find stuff through some of the more obscure music subreddits (often by literally asking people what else is similar to XYZ). There are undoubtedly blogs around but nobody really uses the internet like that any more... Side note Spotify and other streaming platforms are awful for even searching for classical music.
- bjornlouser 5y ago
  Gramophone has a 'What Next' feature that starts with some well known piece and gives a sort of decision tree of suggested pieces based on various criteria. https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/article/after-tchaikovsky-s-symphony-no-6-what-next https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/article/after-tchaikov... The digital subscription allows you to search the archive, although I'm not sure how long they have written 'What Next'.
jancsika 5y ago
An die Musik: no modulation to flat VI. Didn't like it. An die Leier: no modulation to flat VI. Didn't like it. Der zürnende Barde: no modulation to flat VI. Didn't like it. Das Weinen: no modulation to flat VI. Didn't like it. Der Wallensteiner Lanzknecht beim Trunk: no modulation to flat VI. Didn't like it. Der Winterabend: modulation to relative minor then changing mode to major-- judges? Buzz. Sorry, we are looking for a flat... wait a minute, wait just one minute... bass after the cadence in the new key is descending from the tonic by whole-step... and another whole step... and we have a modulation to flat-VI. I liked it.
Uptrenda 5y ago
This would be much better as a collection of sharable playlists. Not text titles...
- Bud 5y ago
  Just get on Apple Music and listen to it all sung by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. That's all you need.
blacksqr 5y ago
I wish someone would do some Schubert arrangements in a more modern vein, like Cole Porter-style jazz ensemble, to make his songs more listenable to modern ears. Classical composer Howard Goodall called Schubert the last really gifted melodicist before the Beatles showed up, it's a pity his work isn't more accessible.
- felix318 5y ago
  There is a lot of pop music that take melodies from classical pieces, they sound just like any other pop song. There is more to Schubert, or the Beatles for that matter, than a talent for melody. By the way, Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Johann Strauss, and a few others born after Schubert were at least just as good melodists as Lennon and McCartney.
  - vixen99 5y ago
    Oh that's too generous. 'At least' is surely a bit strong. How about nearly as good? I'm wondering if folk like Bach, Mozart and Verdi might be considered to make the grade? One or two good numbers, possibly? Anyway in a couple of hundred years we'll see how the works of Lennon and McCartney are faring versus the classics crowd. (Or is the laugh on me for having a defective irony detector)
  - callmeal 5y ago
    Rachmaninoff heavily influenced Eric Carmen and others: https://www.cmuse.org/you-cant-believe-how-much-rachmaninoff-influenced-popular-music/ https://www.cmuse.org/you-cant-believe-how-much-rachmaninoff... >> As far as derivative works are concerned, the adagio theme (the second movement) appears in the ballad All By Myself (1975) by Eric Carmen, who subsequently explained that Rachmaninoff was “his favourite music.” The following year, he released Never Gonna Fall in Love Again, which, in turn, was based on the third movement from Rachmaninoff’s Symphony n.2. >> >> Little did Carmen know, however, that Rachmaninoff’s music, which he quoted extensively, was not in the public domain, as the Rachmaninoff estate informed him after the release of his album. The two parts, however, managed to reach an agreement: the estate would receive 12% of the royalties both from “All by Myself” and “Never Gonna Fall in Love again.”
DavidWoof 5y ago
POV: Skip the list and immediately search for Erlkönig... Found it under Transcendent, Erlkönig: Never loses its power, no matter how many times you hear it. OK, I endorse this list.
- acjohnson55 5y ago
  I just read this piece, linked to from the list: https://van-magazine.com/mag/strange-dissonance/ https://van-magazine.com/mag/strange-dissonance/ Just...wow.
- DavidPiper 5y ago
  The Youtuber Sideways has a fun video on the music theory behind Erlkönig - very cool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcnSX319OhI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcnSX319OhI (The second half devolves into a rant, still fun though).
AlbertCory 5y ago
I was taking voice lessons, and I didn't yet know any of the standard Musical Theater Audition Songs (now I have A Wandering Minstrel, I or at least I had it at one point). So I went to audition for Iolanthe with Das Wandern ist des Müllers Lust. The director said "Are you really going to sing lied?" I always kick myself for not answering, "Well, I'm not going to sing backup!" I'll show myself out now.
Bud 5y ago
Professional classical baritone here. I've had the pleasure of singing Schubert's songs for...around 37 years now. (Oh dear, I'm getting rather old.) Other than Bach's cantatas, this is probably my favorite body of work for the classical singer. The other exemplars are Schumann, Brahms, Wolf, and Mahler, but Schubert still reigns supreme in the realm of the Lied. I've listened to probably nearly all of Schubert's output by now, and have sung, oh, perhaps half of them. Overall, I find these rankings apt and mostly accurate. Really the best is left for last; Schubert's 3 monumental song cycles are all put in the "transcendent" category at the very end, but the songs in them (24 for Winterreise alone) are left unevaluated on an individual basis. This was probably wise.
- 8bitsrule 5y ago
  The transcendents are truly that. But, I'm more into symphonies than vocals (no offense). I've heard all of the biggies many times. And if I had to pick one for the desert island, it'd be the Unfinished and Great. (Two in one jacket.) Why? because: how did he do that?
rmk 5y ago
Thank you for whoever wrote this, and whoever posted this. This is what makes HN special. Just spent a wonderful hour listening to Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Alfred Brendel in the Winterreise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Rry-ahcHM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Rry-ahcHM Simply sublime.
jacquesm 5y ago
Apologies for the quality of the recording but allow yourself to be transported to the 1950's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tjstsWoQiw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tjstsWoQiw
maxehmookau 5y ago
I adore the author's description of Erlkonig. > A naked major second is resolved upwards (wrong!) to a unison (wrong!!!!). This is one of the best things I've ever seen on HN. Thank you to whoever wrote it.
longtrousers 5y ago
"No one wants to cancel Schubert... but" And it goes on from there. With zero understanding of historical context, remarks like "profoundly unfunny" because the jokes are too offensive. Ugh. Why does _everything_ have to be political? Calm down, breathe, and try to not view everything through toxic lenses.
lioeters 5y ago
"Like mediocre Mozart." Oof, that one hurts..

72 points by spekcular 5y ago

I strongly disagree with Mr. Brown regarding 'Alinde' (D. 904). It is transcendent. I invite him to step into the alley with me so that we can discuss this further.

HPsquared 5y ago

Die Forelle (the Trout) is the only one I know, very catchy: https://youtu.be/NF9DrUXowBo https://youtu.be/NF9DrUXowBo Also adapted as a quintet: https://youtu.be/HwbWvGtaZGo https://youtu.be/HwbWvGtaZGo

akdor1154 5y ago

(completely off-topic, but commenters on this thread likely to know) Anyone know a good recommendation system for classical, or even better, cross-genre recommendations? E.g. a project/product that is hosted and ready to use / subscribe to. Where I could put in "I like pieces composed by Ravel and Holst, and I also like things performed by Remy le Beouf", and it would actually give me sensible recs.. Spotify seems to rely on popularity too much, which doesn't really work here (I get a bunch of Best Piano for Chill Work compilation albums and not much else). Is Pandora's rec system any good here or does it fall into the same trap? Any other projects people have seen?

bryanlarsen 5y ago
The trick for Spotify is to start from something obscure that you like. Anything popular will have the problem you describe Don't know how it would work for classical, but it works great for jazz.
Bud 5y ago
Make friends with a professional classical musician, and ask them! We're reasonably fun people. ;)
zokier 5y ago
You might want to try out idagio. Unfortunately primephonic got acquired by apple so they are out of the game these days.
powersnail 5y ago
You can go to classical music focused forums or Reddit and ask for recommendations. As far as I’ve tried, no recommendation system beats human enthusiasts when it comes to music discovery.
jb_s 5y ago
The youtube algorithm can do alright here. The key is a recommendation system that actually segments you into the right sort of place, spotify doesn't really work properly for me in this way. Other than that I have no idea. I find stuff through some of the more obscure music subreddits (often by literally asking people what else is similar to XYZ). There are undoubtedly blogs around but nobody really uses the internet like that any more... Side note Spotify and other streaming platforms are awful for even searching for classical music.
bjornlouser 5y ago
Gramophone has a 'What Next' feature that starts with some well known piece and gives a sort of decision tree of suggested pieces based on various criteria. https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/article/after-tchaikovsky-s-symphony-no-6-what-next https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/article/after-tchaikov... The digital subscription allows you to search the archive, although I'm not sure how long they have written 'What Next'.

jancsika 5y ago

An die Musik: no modulation to flat VI. Didn't like it. An die Leier: no modulation to flat VI. Didn't like it. Der zürnende Barde: no modulation to flat VI. Didn't like it. Das Weinen: no modulation to flat VI. Didn't like it. Der Wallensteiner Lanzknecht beim Trunk: no modulation to flat VI. Didn't like it. Der Winterabend: modulation to relative minor then changing mode to major-- judges? Buzz. Sorry, we are looking for a flat... wait a minute, wait just one minute... bass after the cadence in the new key is descending from the tonic by whole-step... and another whole step... and we have a modulation to flat-VI. I liked it.

Uptrenda 5y ago

This would be much better as a collection of sharable playlists. Not text titles...

Bud 5y ago
Just get on Apple Music and listen to it all sung by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. That's all you need.

blacksqr 5y ago

I wish someone would do some Schubert arrangements in a more modern vein, like Cole Porter-style jazz ensemble, to make his songs more listenable to modern ears. Classical composer Howard Goodall called Schubert the last really gifted melodicist before the Beatles showed up, it's a pity his work isn't more accessible.

felix318 5y ago
There is a lot of pop music that take melodies from classical pieces, they sound just like any other pop song. There is more to Schubert, or the Beatles for that matter, than a talent for melody. By the way, Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Johann Strauss, and a few others born after Schubert were at least just as good melodists as Lennon and McCartney.
- vixen99 5y ago
  Oh that's too generous. 'At least' is surely a bit strong. How about nearly as good? I'm wondering if folk like Bach, Mozart and Verdi might be considered to make the grade? One or two good numbers, possibly? Anyway in a couple of hundred years we'll see how the works of Lennon and McCartney are faring versus the classics crowd. (Or is the laugh on me for having a defective irony detector)
- callmeal 5y ago
  Rachmaninoff heavily influenced Eric Carmen and others: https://www.cmuse.org/you-cant-believe-how-much-rachmaninoff-influenced-popular-music/ https://www.cmuse.org/you-cant-believe-how-much-rachmaninoff... >> As far as derivative works are concerned, the adagio theme (the second movement) appears in the ballad All By Myself (1975) by Eric Carmen, who subsequently explained that Rachmaninoff was “his favourite music.” The following year, he released Never Gonna Fall in Love Again, which, in turn, was based on the third movement from Rachmaninoff’s Symphony n.2. >> >> Little did Carmen know, however, that Rachmaninoff’s music, which he quoted extensively, was not in the public domain, as the Rachmaninoff estate informed him after the release of his album. The two parts, however, managed to reach an agreement: the estate would receive 12% of the royalties both from “All by Myself” and “Never Gonna Fall in Love again.”

DavidWoof 5y ago

POV: Skip the list and immediately search for Erlkönig... Found it under Transcendent, Erlkönig: Never loses its power, no matter how many times you hear it. OK, I endorse this list.

acjohnson55 5y ago
I just read this piece, linked to from the list: https://van-magazine.com/mag/strange-dissonance/ https://van-magazine.com/mag/strange-dissonance/ Just...wow.
DavidPiper 5y ago
The Youtuber Sideways has a fun video on the music theory behind Erlkönig - very cool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcnSX319OhI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcnSX319OhI (The second half devolves into a rant, still fun though).

AlbertCory 5y ago

I was taking voice lessons, and I didn't yet know any of the standard Musical Theater Audition Songs (now I have A Wandering Minstrel, I or at least I had it at one point). So I went to audition for Iolanthe with Das Wandern ist des Müllers Lust. The director said "Are you really going to sing lied?" I always kick myself for not answering, "Well, I'm not going to sing backup!" I'll show myself out now.

Bud 5y ago

Professional classical baritone here. I've had the pleasure of singing Schubert's songs for...around 37 years now. (Oh dear, I'm getting rather old.) Other than Bach's cantatas, this is probably my favorite body of work for the classical singer. The other exemplars are Schumann, Brahms, Wolf, and Mahler, but Schubert still reigns supreme in the realm of the Lied. I've listened to probably nearly all of Schubert's output by now, and have sung, oh, perhaps half of them. Overall, I find these rankings apt and mostly accurate. Really the best is left for last; Schubert's 3 monumental song cycles are all put in the "transcendent" category at the very end, but the songs in them (24 for Winterreise alone) are left unevaluated on an individual basis. This was probably wise.

8bitsrule 5y ago
The transcendents are truly that. But, I'm more into symphonies than vocals (no offense). I've heard all of the biggies many times. And if I had to pick one for the desert island, it'd be the Unfinished and Great. (Two in one jacket.) Why? because: how did he do that?

rmk 5y ago

Thank you for whoever wrote this, and whoever posted this. This is what makes HN special. Just spent a wonderful hour listening to Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Alfred Brendel in the Winterreise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Rry-ahcHM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Rry-ahcHM Simply sublime.

jacquesm 5y ago

Apologies for the quality of the recording but allow yourself to be transported to the 1950's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tjstsWoQiw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tjstsWoQiw

maxehmookau 5y ago

I adore the author's description of Erlkonig. > A naked major second is resolved upwards (wrong!) to a unison (wrong!!!!). This is one of the best things I've ever seen on HN. Thank you to whoever wrote it.

longtrousers 5y ago

"No one wants to cancel Schubert... but" And it goes on from there. With zero understanding of historical context, remarks like "profoundly unfunny" because the jokes are too offensive. Ugh. Why does _everything_ have to be political? Calm down, breathe, and try to not view everything through toxic lenses.

lioeters 5y ago

"Like mediocre Mozart." Oof, that one hurts..