5 ms·

Why is it so controversial to say that it's not fair for someone with a male body to compete against those with female bodies? I sympathize with trans women on

Why is it so controversial to say that it's not fair for someone with a male body to compete against those with female bodies? I sympathize with trans women on most issues except this one. It's not fair to the young women who got up early every morning for years and put in the time practicing to lose this way. I would just quit and do something else. This doesn't bode well for women's sports.

leephillips 5y ago
It’s not at all controversial among normal people. But many universities in the English speaking world, and some critical sporting authorities, are under the control of a managerial class representing a powerful cult. One of its central dogmas is “trans women are women”; if that is true, then there is no basis to exclude trans-identifying men from women’s sports.
- okareaman 5y ago
  To me it feels like another example of men making rules for women that women have to abide by. From what I read on Twitter, a lot of women aren't having it.
  - leephillips 5y ago
    That’s exactly what it is. An insidious resurgence of a vicious strain of misogyny that we probably thought had been stamped out. But I feel the pendulum is swinging back, as you’ve noticed on Twitter.
  - garbagecoder 5y ago
    Misogny is moving further down the oppression pyramid towards antisemitism, which no one cares about at all.
    - okareaman 5y ago
      I don't think people don't care. I think it's very hard to talk about. For example, are antisemitism and anti Israel policies the same thing or is it a spectrum?
belorn 5y ago
Sports like this are generally not fair since one can predict who are able to be a top elite professional with a fairly high degree of certainty based only on genes. It is fairly rare and specific gene variants needed to take up, carry and consume the exceptional amount of oxygen needed to be at the top of human ability of speed and endurance. It only because people genes are hidden that the sport currently feels fair. It would be much better if the sport had divisions based on actually equal genetic makeup, including those that effects hormone production. A weight class for endurance and speed sports.
- okareaman 5y ago
  Boxing seems to have solved this problem with different weight classes
  - belorn 5y ago
    The biggest problem for weight classes in boxing is that people can diet or be dehydrated when measured in order to try cheat the system and qualify in a lower class. Muscle mass could be potential replacements, which I think has been considered from time to time.
- leephillips 5y ago
  What we mean by “fair” in sports is that everyone obeys the rules, not that everyone has the same abilities. One rule for women’s sports is that you have to be...a woman. Letting men compete is not fair.
montroser 5y ago
When I was in high school, we had an influx of Somali refugees at our school who in short order came to absolutely dominate in basketball. In comparison to the other kids in the area, physically there was no contest. Our team of Somalis were a head taller than anyone else, and no amount of other teams getting up early to practice had any glimmer of a hope of overcoming their new disadvantage. We never came close to losing a game. Was that fair? I feel like there are no easy answers here.
- okareaman 5y ago
  No that doesn't seem fair but it's a fairly isolated example that won't affect millions of young girls who want to excel at sports when they grow up. If Somalis were dominating sports in every high school in America (sorry to be America-centric) then I'd say you could compare the two more effectively.
  - leephillips 5y ago
    Also, there are no “average height” leagues, where extra tall people are allowed to unfairly compete while everyone pretends that they’re of average height, because they “identify” as being 5'9" tall. Average height people are not an oppressed class that fought for decades to have leagues where they could compete with each other, only to suddenly face a new reality where extra tall people identifying as “average” are admitted to their leagues.
    - okareaman 5y ago
      The bottom line is that if I were a member of the trans community I would concede on this issue because it's one that causes a lot of hostility from the general public. Why give people an issue to dislike you when you might find a few that are more friendly to you? Is it really that important for trans women to compete in women's sports? You have to learn to pick your battles.
  - montroser 5y ago
    Are transgender people dominating sports in American high schools? The point is that the Somalis came with some genetic traits that made them predisposed to winning at sports. So too do trans girls. In either case we shouldn't ban them because they happen to be better physically suited to play the game.

leephillips 5y ago

It’s not at all controversial among normal people. But many universities in the English speaking world, and some critical sporting authorities, are under the control of a managerial class representing a powerful cult. One of its central dogmas is “trans women are women”; if that is true, then there is no basis to exclude trans-identifying men from women’s sports.

okareaman 5y ago
To me it feels like another example of men making rules for women that women have to abide by. From what I read on Twitter, a lot of women aren't having it.
- leephillips 5y ago
  That’s exactly what it is. An insidious resurgence of a vicious strain of misogyny that we probably thought had been stamped out. But I feel the pendulum is swinging back, as you’ve noticed on Twitter.
- garbagecoder 5y ago
  Misogny is moving further down the oppression pyramid towards antisemitism, which no one cares about at all.
  - okareaman 5y ago
    I don't think people don't care. I think it's very hard to talk about. For example, are antisemitism and anti Israel policies the same thing or is it a spectrum?

belorn 5y ago

Sports like this are generally not fair since one can predict who are able to be a top elite professional with a fairly high degree of certainty based only on genes. It is fairly rare and specific gene variants needed to take up, carry and consume the exceptional amount of oxygen needed to be at the top of human ability of speed and endurance. It only because people genes are hidden that the sport currently feels fair. It would be much better if the sport had divisions based on actually equal genetic makeup, including those that effects hormone production. A weight class for endurance and speed sports.

okareaman 5y ago
Boxing seems to have solved this problem with different weight classes
- belorn 5y ago
  The biggest problem for weight classes in boxing is that people can diet or be dehydrated when measured in order to try cheat the system and qualify in a lower class. Muscle mass could be potential replacements, which I think has been considered from time to time.
leephillips 5y ago
What we mean by “fair” in sports is that everyone obeys the rules, not that everyone has the same abilities. One rule for women’s sports is that you have to be...a woman. Letting men compete is not fair.

montroser 5y ago

When I was in high school, we had an influx of Somali refugees at our school who in short order came to absolutely dominate in basketball. In comparison to the other kids in the area, physically there was no contest. Our team of Somalis were a head taller than anyone else, and no amount of other teams getting up early to practice had any glimmer of a hope of overcoming their new disadvantage. We never came close to losing a game. Was that fair? I feel like there are no easy answers here.

okareaman 5y ago
No that doesn't seem fair but it's a fairly isolated example that won't affect millions of young girls who want to excel at sports when they grow up. If Somalis were dominating sports in every high school in America (sorry to be America-centric) then I'd say you could compare the two more effectively.
- leephillips 5y ago
  Also, there are no “average height” leagues, where extra tall people are allowed to unfairly compete while everyone pretends that they’re of average height, because they “identify” as being 5'9" tall. Average height people are not an oppressed class that fought for decades to have leagues where they could compete with each other, only to suddenly face a new reality where extra tall people identifying as “average” are admitted to their leagues.
  - okareaman 5y ago
    The bottom line is that if I were a member of the trans community I would concede on this issue because it's one that causes a lot of hostility from the general public. Why give people an issue to dislike you when you might find a few that are more friendly to you? Is it really that important for trans women to compete in women's sports? You have to learn to pick your battles.
- montroser 5y ago
  Are transgender people dominating sports in American high schools? The point is that the Somalis came with some genetic traits that made them predisposed to winning at sports. So too do trans girls. In either case we shouldn't ban them because they happen to be better physically suited to play the game.