3 ms·

Bullshit. I utterly and completely disagree that the boundaries I mention are hard to implement. I will also say that boundaries and limits are not only healthy

by ratww 5y ago

Bullshit. I utterly and completely disagree that the boundaries I mention are hard to implement. I will also say that boundaries and limits are not only healthy, they are absolutely necessary for long-term, large-scale, open source projects, and this is why those projects survive. People on FOSS rarely get to be long-term maintainers without establishing clear boundaries, so most active long-term maintainers obviously do have the boundaries I mention. This is a lot of people. I'm clearly not taking hobby projects, I'm talking about packages with thousands to millions of weekly downloads, for example. The myth of the hero maintainer must die. Binging Netflix is completely acceptable if you're in your free time. EVEN if the package has a RCE vulnerability. And most maintainers of popular projects will agree with that.

wpietri 5y ago
Easy for you does not mean easy for others. If you think boundaries are easy for everybody, go read Reddit's AITA, where you will find a flood of people who struggle with it, generally because important figures in their lives train them not to have boundaries: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/ I'm glad it's easy for you. But therapists can spend years working with people on establishing and maintaining boundaries in important relationships. You can't just handwave the difficulty away. Especially when so many tech jobs discourage having a good sense of boundaries in the first place. E.g., all the startups where people are expected to be bought in to a vision of changing the world, working crazy hours. All the bosses that talk about their teams being like families. All the places that talk up commitment and loyalty and going the extra mile. Which again you can see a flood of if you care to look: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/ https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/ > And most maintainers of popular projects will agree with that. [citation needed]
- ratww 5y ago
  You're reaching and you're constantly misrepresenting and replying to exaggerated interpretations of my views. Unpaid OSS maintainer work is nothing like startup work or a similar to the issues in antiwork. The boundaries are much easier and much more obviously necessary than in any other relationship because direct contact is not mandatory, and productive work is impossible without them. Also, even if impossible for one person, other co-maintainers can even help with those boundaries, and there are tools available for that. Of course there will be people unable to work healthily with OSS, but those people will burn out very quickly and they won't be able to be long-term maintainers, period. Also, keep in mind that a large part of OSS maintainers are paid by companies to work with OSS and they do it on company time. I'd likewise ask for a citation of some maintainer agreeing that watching Netflix on their free time is akin to "giving the middle finger" to users. That was one of the most toxic phrases related to OSS maintainer work I've ever seen on this website, and those views should not be spread as if they were acceptable. I stand by my opinion that the "work harder" vs "watch Netflix" is a completely fabricated dichotomy, and there is a very viable middle ground available (and necessary) for everyone.

by ratww 5y ago

wpietri 5y ago

Easy for you does not mean easy for others. If you think boundaries are easy for everybody, go read Reddit's AITA, where you will find a flood of people who struggle with it, generally because important figures in their lives train them not to have boundaries: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/ I'm glad it's easy for you. But therapists can spend years working with people on establishing and maintaining boundaries in important relationships. You can't just handwave the difficulty away. Especially when so many tech jobs discourage having a good sense of boundaries in the first place. E.g., all the startups where people are expected to be bought in to a vision of changing the world, working crazy hours. All the bosses that talk about their teams being like families. All the places that talk up commitment and loyalty and going the extra mile. Which again you can see a flood of if you care to look: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/ https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/ > And most maintainers of popular projects will agree with that. [citation needed]

ratww 5y ago
You're reaching and you're constantly misrepresenting and replying to exaggerated interpretations of my views. Unpaid OSS maintainer work is nothing like startup work or a similar to the issues in antiwork. The boundaries are much easier and much more obviously necessary than in any other relationship because direct contact is not mandatory, and productive work is impossible without them. Also, even if impossible for one person, other co-maintainers can even help with those boundaries, and there are tools available for that. Of course there will be people unable to work healthily with OSS, but those people will burn out very quickly and they won't be able to be long-term maintainers, period. Also, keep in mind that a large part of OSS maintainers are paid by companies to work with OSS and they do it on company time. I'd likewise ask for a citation of some maintainer agreeing that watching Netflix on their free time is akin to "giving the middle finger" to users. That was one of the most toxic phrases related to OSS maintainer work I've ever seen on this website, and those views should not be spread as if they were acceptable. I stand by my opinion that the "work harder" vs "watch Netflix" is a completely fabricated dichotomy, and there is a very viable middle ground available (and necessary) for everyone.