5 ms·

I actually have no problem with criminalizing cheating to some extent, I’m not actually sure you need new laws for that since it should fall under existing comp

I actually have no problem with criminalizing cheating to some extent, I’m not actually sure you need new laws for that since it should fall under existing computer misuse legislation and arguably you can also make a case for harassment and public nuisance. Even without it being a full on felony in jurisdictions that have that distinction it should expose you to civil suits because you are degrading a service and costing the company money. If you break into a paintball arena for example and start running around shooting everyone with your own gun you probably will get the cops called on you and they’ll drag you out and charge you with something. And heck even without breaking in if you simply disregard the rules and don’t leave when asked the cops will be called. That said you can support all of this without supporting being forced to install root kits and handing over the control of your devices to the game developer or publisher. The same goes for DRM, I honestly don’t see a problem if someone goes to jail for piracy I do care when companies use terrible DRM to protect their products.

rightbyte 5y ago
> I actually have no problem with criminalizing cheating to some extent If it is criminal to cheat it is not a game anymore. On the other hand I would welcome hazard game regulations for all games with lottery ticket like products for sale, like "loot boxes".
- dogma1138 5y ago
  I’m pretty sure it’s already criminal to use “hacks” to cheat. Abuse of game mechanics shouldn’t fall under that, tho I have no issue with banning people who do it knowingly and repeatedly after it’s been made clear it’s not an intended mechanic. We do (try) prevent cheating in sports and other games and ban players and in fact whole countries for cheating. Try cheating in a casino for example, card counting may get you thrown out, hacking a slot machine would land you in jail. Loot boxes are another issue they should be regulated as gambling I have no issue with thst.
  - Teever 5y ago
    I'm okay with criminal laws that punish people for cheating in games that have cash prizes but I really don't want to see that applied to everyday games. Let's so for old times sake I organize a lanparty with my friends from HS and during this event someone decides to turn on no clip to surprise their friends. Should this be criminal?
    - tylerhou 5y ago
      It depends on the harm done. Obviously if you’re playing with your friends there is likely no harm done. If you’re wasting 50+ other people’s time (e.g. FPS battle arenas) then you might want a harsher punishment. Of course there are degrees; I don’t think people should be thrown in jail for cheating in casual matches/pubs. But then if you cheat in a tournament where there are hundreds of thousands of $$$ at stake, jail time might be appropriate.
      - rightbyte 5y ago
        > But then if you cheat in a tournament where there are hundreds of thousands of $$$ at stake, jail time might be appropriate. Please no. I mean athletes are not thrown in jail for doping in most places. If cheating are to be illegal, it needs gambling regulation and supervision, even if just for pros. And I don't think that would end well.
        tylerhou 5y ago
        https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2015_Match-Fixing_Scandal#Sentencing https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2015_Match-Fixing_Scandal#...
    - dogma1138 5y ago
      If you paid to attend an event and someone was disrupting it are you happy with the venue calling the police to come and deal with them so the event can resume?
  - nix23 5y ago
- tentacleuno 5y ago
  > On the other hand I would welcome hazard game regulations for all games with lottery ticket like products for sale, like "loot boxes". ...especially with all the YouTube advertising. I see advertisements for these (what is essentially) gambling games quite frequently on YouTube. "One free spin if you use code XXXXX, guys! Go download it now!" type of stuff. They obviously get a kickback from these ads. The audience for these types of channels are mostly going to be young / teenage boys. They know exactly what they're doing, and personally I find it despicable and harrowing that YouTube entertain this.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    Try Googling "gachapon" to get an idea of how bad the epidemic is globally. These games have existed for a good while in Japan and China, and their sole purpose is to extract value out of people with obvious impulse problems (in both the real-life and digital incarnations). It's really just the abuse of capitalism driven to it's extremes; game companies will go "whale hunting" to try and create situations where limited-time assets can only be acquired through insane spending, and repeat it until their users either quit or run out of money. Seeing all this talk of incorporating Web3 into everything only makes me afraid of our gacha-ized future.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  >If it is criminal to cheat it is not a game anymore. It never has been a game in the sense you're implying here, that's to say as an informal arrangement, you're literally signing a TOS for a piece of software you're going to use abiding by some rules, it just happens to be a 'videogame'. And I don't just mean it it in a pedantic sense, but a lot of these games involve money, either by paying for the game or by paying for content, not just gambling, and if someone ruins a product you paid for that's pretty bad.
  - rightbyte 5y ago
    But it is in no way worse to cheat in eg. Fortnite than in a board game like Monopoly. Also, the TOS is not legally binding in a contract sense, especially since minors are "literally signing" it, which they have no power to do.
    - Barrin92 5y ago
      I'm not sure concerning the details in regards to minors, but terms of service are legally binding contracts, although enforcement depends on the details of any given contract. Terms of service lawsuits absolutely do exist, both by companies as well as by customers. You may remember the George Hotz / Sony lawsuit over jailbreaking the playstation. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/business_law/safeselling/terms/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/business_law/safeselling/...
    - Volundr 5y ago
      > But it is in no way worse to cheat in eg. Fortnite than in a board game like Monopoly. If you cheat in Monopoly, I can simply not play with you anymore. This is not true of Fortnite. You also have the potential to impact a much higher number of people cheating in Fortnite.
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  I often cheat, modify and use other people's save game file in single player games. Technically this is already against the ToS. Of course videogames aren't just a game anymore, they are a billion dollar entertainment industry.
- Volundr 5y ago
  > If it is criminal to cheat it is not a game anymore. So Poker, Blackjack, etc aren't games now? There are plenty of circumstances where it'd be illegal to cheat in games.
DanteIlPoeta 5y ago
I think you should touch grass.
gruez 5y ago
>If you break into a paintball arena for example and start running around shooting everyone with your own gun you probably will get the cops called on you and they’ll drag you out and charge you with something. "your own gun" meaning a gun that fires bullets, or a paintball gun that's more powerful than that's allowed by regulations? If it's the former the police would be dragging you away because you're literally putting holes in people, but the latter case I'm skeptical they'll do anything. Are they going to arrest a competition bicyclist when they find out that they had a hidden motor in their bike?
- johnny22 5y ago
  One could warn them to stop using their own equipment and then tell them to leave. If they don't, then you might start thinking about calling it Trespassing.
  - gruez 5y ago
    Right, but even in that circumstance I doubt the police (or any part of the justice system) is going to punish you for it. At worst you'll be asked to leave and the police will only show up if you refuse to do so. You're not allowed to bring your own snacks/beverages at a movie theater either, but the police isn't going to arrest you for it unless you refuse to leave.
Der_Einzige 5y ago
Do you know how many unintended consequences that criminalizing cheating in video games are going to have? Many, many things can be defined as though it is a "game" or even a "video game". This is such a terrible policy decision, that I very much hope that no old fart in the US house or Senate ever has this idea. I worry every time that AOC plays league because she may run into the xearth scripter who causes here to have this very same "insight".
- dogma1138 5y ago
  Again I stated that I don’t think new legislation is required computer misuse acts and civil litigation is more than adequate currently, ban cheaters find a way to issue a restraining order to prevent them from using your service and if they disobey it they are facing contempt which is a criminal offense. For the people that make money off selling cheats and or are disrupting the service at scale current laws that cover computer misuse should be sufficient. I am perfectly happy to have the book thrown at someone who hacks say a Minecraft server to fuck with someone just as I’m happy to see someone who breaks into someones property and ransacks it. Computer misuse, trespassing, public nuisance and property damage are already criminal offenses. Cheating in an online video game can easily fall into one or more of those categories.

rightbyte 5y ago

> I actually have no problem with criminalizing cheating to some extent If it is criminal to cheat it is not a game anymore. On the other hand I would welcome hazard game regulations for all games with lottery ticket like products for sale, like "loot boxes".

dogma1138 5y ago
I’m pretty sure it’s already criminal to use “hacks” to cheat. Abuse of game mechanics shouldn’t fall under that, tho I have no issue with banning people who do it knowingly and repeatedly after it’s been made clear it’s not an intended mechanic. We do (try) prevent cheating in sports and other games and ban players and in fact whole countries for cheating. Try cheating in a casino for example, card counting may get you thrown out, hacking a slot machine would land you in jail. Loot boxes are another issue they should be regulated as gambling I have no issue with thst.
- Teever 5y ago
  I'm okay with criminal laws that punish people for cheating in games that have cash prizes but I really don't want to see that applied to everyday games. Let's so for old times sake I organize a lanparty with my friends from HS and during this event someone decides to turn on no clip to surprise their friends. Should this be criminal?
  - tylerhou 5y ago
    It depends on the harm done. Obviously if you’re playing with your friends there is likely no harm done. If you’re wasting 50+ other people’s time (e.g. FPS battle arenas) then you might want a harsher punishment. Of course there are degrees; I don’t think people should be thrown in jail for cheating in casual matches/pubs. But then if you cheat in a tournament where there are hundreds of thousands of $$$ at stake, jail time might be appropriate.
    - rightbyte 5y ago
      > But then if you cheat in a tournament where there are hundreds of thousands of $$$ at stake, jail time might be appropriate. Please no. I mean athletes are not thrown in jail for doping in most places. If cheating are to be illegal, it needs gambling regulation and supervision, even if just for pros. And I don't think that would end well.
      - tylerhou 5y ago
        https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2015_Match-Fixing_Scandal#Sentencing https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2015_Match-Fixing_Scandal#...
  - dogma1138 5y ago
    If you paid to attend an event and someone was disrupting it are you happy with the venue calling the police to come and deal with them so the event can resume?
- nix23 5y ago
tentacleuno 5y ago
> On the other hand I would welcome hazard game regulations for all games with lottery ticket like products for sale, like "loot boxes". ...especially with all the YouTube advertising. I see advertisements for these (what is essentially) gambling games quite frequently on YouTube. "One free spin if you use code XXXXX, guys! Go download it now!" type of stuff. They obviously get a kickback from these ads. The audience for these types of channels are mostly going to be young / teenage boys. They know exactly what they're doing, and personally I find it despicable and harrowing that YouTube entertain this.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  Try Googling "gachapon" to get an idea of how bad the epidemic is globally. These games have existed for a good while in Japan and China, and their sole purpose is to extract value out of people with obvious impulse problems (in both the real-life and digital incarnations). It's really just the abuse of capitalism driven to it's extremes; game companies will go "whale hunting" to try and create situations where limited-time assets can only be acquired through insane spending, and repeat it until their users either quit or run out of money. Seeing all this talk of incorporating Web3 into everything only makes me afraid of our gacha-ized future.
Barrin92 5y ago
>If it is criminal to cheat it is not a game anymore. It never has been a game in the sense you're implying here, that's to say as an informal arrangement, you're literally signing a TOS for a piece of software you're going to use abiding by some rules, it just happens to be a 'videogame'. And I don't just mean it it in a pedantic sense, but a lot of these games involve money, either by paying for the game or by paying for content, not just gambling, and if someone ruins a product you paid for that's pretty bad.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  But it is in no way worse to cheat in eg. Fortnite than in a board game like Monopoly. Also, the TOS is not legally binding in a contract sense, especially since minors are "literally signing" it, which they have no power to do.
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    I'm not sure concerning the details in regards to minors, but terms of service are legally binding contracts, although enforcement depends on the details of any given contract. Terms of service lawsuits absolutely do exist, both by companies as well as by customers. You may remember the George Hotz / Sony lawsuit over jailbreaking the playstation. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/business_law/safeselling/terms/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/business_law/safeselling/...
  - Volundr 5y ago
    > But it is in no way worse to cheat in eg. Fortnite than in a board game like Monopoly. If you cheat in Monopoly, I can simply not play with you anymore. This is not true of Fortnite. You also have the potential to impact a much higher number of people cheating in Fortnite.
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
I often cheat, modify and use other people's save game file in single player games. Technically this is already against the ToS. Of course videogames aren't just a game anymore, they are a billion dollar entertainment industry.
Volundr 5y ago
> If it is criminal to cheat it is not a game anymore. So Poker, Blackjack, etc aren't games now? There are plenty of circumstances where it'd be illegal to cheat in games.

DanteIlPoeta 5y ago

I think you should touch grass.

gruez 5y ago

>If you break into a paintball arena for example and start running around shooting everyone with your own gun you probably will get the cops called on you and they’ll drag you out and charge you with something. "your own gun" meaning a gun that fires bullets, or a paintball gun that's more powerful than that's allowed by regulations? If it's the former the police would be dragging you away because you're literally putting holes in people, but the latter case I'm skeptical they'll do anything. Are they going to arrest a competition bicyclist when they find out that they had a hidden motor in their bike?

johnny22 5y ago
One could warn them to stop using their own equipment and then tell them to leave. If they don't, then you might start thinking about calling it Trespassing.
- gruez 5y ago
  Right, but even in that circumstance I doubt the police (or any part of the justice system) is going to punish you for it. At worst you'll be asked to leave and the police will only show up if you refuse to do so. You're not allowed to bring your own snacks/beverages at a movie theater either, but the police isn't going to arrest you for it unless you refuse to leave.

Der_Einzige 5y ago

Do you know how many unintended consequences that criminalizing cheating in video games are going to have? Many, many things can be defined as though it is a "game" or even a "video game". This is such a terrible policy decision, that I very much hope that no old fart in the US house or Senate ever has this idea. I worry every time that AOC plays league because she may run into the xearth scripter who causes here to have this very same "insight".

dogma1138 5y ago
Again I stated that I don’t think new legislation is required computer misuse acts and civil litigation is more than adequate currently, ban cheaters find a way to issue a restraining order to prevent them from using your service and if they disobey it they are facing contempt which is a criminal offense. For the people that make money off selling cheats and or are disrupting the service at scale current laws that cover computer misuse should be sufficient. I am perfectly happy to have the book thrown at someone who hacks say a Minecraft server to fuck with someone just as I’m happy to see someone who breaks into someones property and ransacks it. Computer misuse, trespassing, public nuisance and property damage are already criminal offenses. Cheating in an online video game can easily fall into one or more of those categories.