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Read the articles. Specifically, for the Baltimore school system, they compare the average wages of a teacher in the public sector, with the average of a teache

Read the articles. Specifically, for the Baltimore school system, they compare the average wages of a teacher in the public sector, with the average of a teacher in a catholic school. They try to make the point that $40,000 a year is enough for a teacher in Baltimore. Now, for a person to have an opinion is fine. But this is a partisan organization, devoted to pushing an agenda and spread it to the public opinion. If they were to succeed, teachers would see their salaries effectively cut.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
They might succeed, but that is the price of freedom of speech. The good people in society need to work to oppose these organizations, and use the same transparent data to make the opposite case. I hope even the dumbest 20% of people can understand that $40k per year is not sufficient pay for almost everywhere in the country, much less Baltimore. But it is possible for firefighters or teachers or anyone to be overpaid. I have even seen it where the firefighters union (and police unions) have captured local government, and captured DB pensions worth millions of dollars where they walk away at age 45 with a $100k+ per year annuity for the rest of their life.
- Aunche 5y ago
  > I hope even the dumbest 20% of people can understand that $40k per year is not sufficient pay for almost everywhere in the country, much less Baltimore. When I read a comment like this, I'm reminded of how much of a bubble HN is. $40k a year is higher than the median personal income of the US, which is higher than the median personal income of Baltimore. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://datacommons.org/place/geoId/2404000?utm_medium=explore&mprop=income&popt=Person&cpv=age%2CYears15Onwards&hl=en https://datacommons.org/place/geoId/2404000?utm_medium=explo...
  - specialist 5y ago
    Is the median wage a living wage?
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I know that, and I think it is insufficient pay for a full time career, much less one that requires working far more than 40 hours per week, and take on huge liability working with kids which likely do not have supportive home lives. Also, a better comparison would be to median income of people of working age working in roles with the work and responsibilities of teachers, or the type of work that our ideal teachers are doing instead of teaching, because the pay is so meager.
    - Aunche 5y ago
      I think that's a reasonable view, but what I found more questionable was why you would think that it is so obvious that even the dumbest 20% should share agreement with you.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        A cursory knowledge of living expenses? Rent, auto insurance, food, mobile, retirement savings, clothing, healthcare, taxes, emergency savings. There is no way to fit that all in $40k. Which I assume must be evident to anyone that has had to pay bills.
        treis 5y ago
        I've lived on less. It's worse than being rich but not really that hard. Especially so when it comes with excellent benefits.
        lanstin 5y ago
        was that after 2000 with student loans? My first few jobs after college where under $40, I think my first year in software I made 42K USD but my rent was $300 and i had no kids. 1996
        jandrewrogers 5y ago
MisterBastahrd 5y ago
It's Forbes though. The magazine is designed to cater to those who were born on third base and are convinced they hit a triple to get there.
cultofmetatron 5y ago
The biggest sham in public education is this idea of "a teacher's salary" as if an english teacher is equivalent to a math or chemistry teacher. While we can go for hours about the intangible values present in all subjects #allsubjectsmatter, the reality is that someone qualified to be a STEM teacher is accepting a loss in opportunity cost in our current system. Why would someone with a math background take $40k to teach a bunch of kids math when they can learn a bit of python and make $140k doing data science? Some do, but outside of rare exceptions, you aren't going to get the best talent. You also end up with teachers who can't be bothered to learn how the subject is used in the real world. I barely put effort into learning matrices or complex numbers in high school. "You just have to learn it, There aren't any practical uses for it" said my highschool algebra teacher told me when I asked what these are used for.
- oceanplexian 5y ago
  Not everyone is optimizing for the maximum amount of dollars they can squeeze out of an hour of work. Plenty of people would be happy to make less, e.g. a dual-income couple, someone right out of college who needs resume experience, someone who's semi-retired and likes to work with kids, someone who doesn't exactly need the money but wants the benefits, and so on.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    If sufficient teachers were willing to do the work for current pay, then we would not be seeing 30 kids in a classroom.
    - detaro 5y ago
      What number of kids per class are the current policies aiming for?
  - cultofmetatron 5y ago
    We need good teachers for every subject for every student. That means paying them wages that are competitive with their other options. We are not going to meet national demand by relying on people who are "happy to make less, e.g. a dual-income couple, someone right out of college who needs resume experience, someone who's semi-retired and likes to work with kids, someone who doesn't exactly need the money but wants the benefits,"
dehrmann 5y ago
I went to a private, Catholic high school. The teachers were paid less that public schools because some felt a calling to it, there's more autonomy and less BS than a public school, and parents were more engaged. 1/3 of students weren't Catholic; they were there for the academics.
- manuelabeledo 5y ago
  They didn’t need the money?

lotsofpulp 5y ago

They might succeed, but that is the price of freedom of speech. The good people in society need to work to oppose these organizations, and use the same transparent data to make the opposite case. I hope even the dumbest 20% of people can understand that $40k per year is not sufficient pay for almost everywhere in the country, much less Baltimore. But it is possible for firefighters or teachers or anyone to be overpaid. I have even seen it where the firefighters union (and police unions) have captured local government, and captured DB pensions worth millions of dollars where they walk away at age 45 with a $100k+ per year annuity for the rest of their life.

Aunche 5y ago
> I hope even the dumbest 20% of people can understand that $40k per year is not sufficient pay for almost everywhere in the country, much less Baltimore. When I read a comment like this, I'm reminded of how much of a bubble HN is. $40k a year is higher than the median personal income of the US, which is higher than the median personal income of Baltimore. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://datacommons.org/place/geoId/2404000?utm_medium=explore&mprop=income&popt=Person&cpv=age%2CYears15Onwards&hl=en https://datacommons.org/place/geoId/2404000?utm_medium=explo...
- specialist 5y ago
  Is the median wage a living wage?
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I know that, and I think it is insufficient pay for a full time career, much less one that requires working far more than 40 hours per week, and take on huge liability working with kids which likely do not have supportive home lives. Also, a better comparison would be to median income of people of working age working in roles with the work and responsibilities of teachers, or the type of work that our ideal teachers are doing instead of teaching, because the pay is so meager.
  - Aunche 5y ago
    I think that's a reasonable view, but what I found more questionable was why you would think that it is so obvious that even the dumbest 20% should share agreement with you.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      A cursory knowledge of living expenses? Rent, auto insurance, food, mobile, retirement savings, clothing, healthcare, taxes, emergency savings. There is no way to fit that all in $40k. Which I assume must be evident to anyone that has had to pay bills.
      - treis 5y ago
        I've lived on less. It's worse than being rich but not really that hard. Especially so when it comes with excellent benefits.
        lanstin 5y ago
        was that after 2000 with student loans? My first few jobs after college where under $40, I think my first year in software I made 42K USD but my rent was $300 and i had no kids. 1996
      - jandrewrogers 5y ago

MisterBastahrd 5y ago

It's Forbes though. The magazine is designed to cater to those who were born on third base and are convinced they hit a triple to get there.

cultofmetatron 5y ago

The biggest sham in public education is this idea of "a teacher's salary" as if an english teacher is equivalent to a math or chemistry teacher. While we can go for hours about the intangible values present in all subjects #allsubjectsmatter, the reality is that someone qualified to be a STEM teacher is accepting a loss in opportunity cost in our current system. Why would someone with a math background take $40k to teach a bunch of kids math when they can learn a bit of python and make $140k doing data science? Some do, but outside of rare exceptions, you aren't going to get the best talent. You also end up with teachers who can't be bothered to learn how the subject is used in the real world. I barely put effort into learning matrices or complex numbers in high school. "You just have to learn it, There aren't any practical uses for it" said my highschool algebra teacher told me when I asked what these are used for.

oceanplexian 5y ago
Not everyone is optimizing for the maximum amount of dollars they can squeeze out of an hour of work. Plenty of people would be happy to make less, e.g. a dual-income couple, someone right out of college who needs resume experience, someone who's semi-retired and likes to work with kids, someone who doesn't exactly need the money but wants the benefits, and so on.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  If sufficient teachers were willing to do the work for current pay, then we would not be seeing 30 kids in a classroom.
  - detaro 5y ago
    What number of kids per class are the current policies aiming for?
- cultofmetatron 5y ago
  We need good teachers for every subject for every student. That means paying them wages that are competitive with their other options. We are not going to meet national demand by relying on people who are "happy to make less, e.g. a dual-income couple, someone right out of college who needs resume experience, someone who's semi-retired and likes to work with kids, someone who doesn't exactly need the money but wants the benefits,"

dehrmann 5y ago

I went to a private, Catholic high school. The teachers were paid less that public schools because some felt a calling to it, there's more autonomy and less BS than a public school, and parents were more engaged. 1/3 of students weren't Catholic; they were there for the academics.

manuelabeledo 5y ago
They didn’t need the money?