4 ms·

I’m with you. I’ve gotten vaccinated for everything my doctor lets me. Japanese Encephalitis? Pshaw. I don’t even know what it is, but good luck with my immune

I’m with you. I’ve gotten vaccinated for everything my doctor lets me. Japanese Encephalitis? Pshaw. I don’t even know what it is, but good luck with my immune system. It’s like getting a superpower in a video game! And, vaccines have general positive effects of health: https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-magazine/qa-how-vaccines-can-strengthen-immune-response-beyond-specific-disease https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-maga...

tux3 5y ago
I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong, but I would be more careful than that. Infections can be the trigger for auto-immune diseases. We're not sure precisely how, but there seems to be a complex combination of genetic and environmental factors. Your immune system is very much not playing games, it's in the business of reacting on a hair trigger, and doing more damage to foreign bodies than it does to your own body. It has an intricate system to avoid turning against yourself, but the system can fail. If a B cell that produces auto-antibodies falls through the cracks, it will not die. You now have the problem of being in a permanent fight against your own immune system, with a variety of unfortunate results. Now that's a lot of scary outcomes, and thankfully those diseases are uncommon. The system almost always works well. But it's a very complex system with ugly failure modes, so I wouldn't encourage you to poke the beast too much.
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  This would be like being worried about playing outside and being exposed to germs. Yes, it’s true that every new infection has the possibility of killing you. But, now we have evidence that exposure to diverse mild pathogens actually makes your immune system less dangerous to the self. Otherwise it would be safer to live in a clean room.
  - tux3 5y ago
    I agree you should not try to live in a clean room, and you shouldn't be worried about being exposed to normal amount of germs. When you say "exposure to diverse mild pathogens actually makes your immune system less dangerous to the self", I suspect you're referring to the hygiene hypothesis that has become part of popular culture. It's important to know that that hypothesis, nowadays, is about early exposure to benign microbes. Meaning from in utero exposure to early childhood at the latest. I have seen no evidence that voluntarily exposing yourself to pathogens is a good idea. The point to my post was that you shouldn't understand the immune system like an RPG element that needs training to level up. Please do get vaccinated for relevant diseases, but I would not go too far in the direction of treating your immune system like a safe thing to play with.
    - freen 5y ago
      There is strong evidence that young children in congregate daycare have substantially stronger immune systems than children cared for at home who are only exposed to family members.
      - tux3 5y ago
        Could you link to that strong evidence? A lookup of systematic reviews on Cochrane & Epistemonikos paints the opposite picture, with a positive correlation between daycare attendance and respiratory tract disorders or asthma.
        dr_dshiv 5y ago
        You got it: Roslund, M. I., Puhakka, R., Grönroos, M., Nurminen, N., Oikarinen, S., Gazali, A. M., ... & ADELE research group. (2020). Biodiversity intervention enhances immune regulation and health-associated commensal microbiota among daycare children. Science advances, 6(42), eaba2578.
        tux3 5y ago
        Thank you! Interesting to see an intervention trial. n=75 is what it is, given the possible confounders (could not control home environment, etc) but I'll be interested to read that in more details =)
    - rpmisms 5y ago
      I ate dirt as a child. Dirt is natural, healthy, and as long as the shit in it is broken down, pretty much harmless. I have a great immune system to this day. My little brother, who spent his early childhood in the city, is nowhere near as robust, and gets sick frequently. Just some anecdotal early-exposure advocacy.
- kijin 5y ago
  The risk/benefit calculation depends on where you live and/or plan to travel. I fear I'm beginning to forget what life was like before Covid, but IIRC people used to travel quite a lot. For example, Japanese encephalitis is rare in Japan, but only because many Japanese people have been vaccinated against it. It's endemic in most other parts of east, southeast, and south Asia. It kills 10K+ people every year, and it spreads through mosquito bites just like malaria. But most travelers only worry about malaria.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ekianjo 5y ago
> And, vaccines have general positive effects of health: https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-maga https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-maga... If you believe that vaccines may have potentially positive effects beyond their original scope, you must also be ready for the opposite, potential negative effects beyond their original scope. If you don't, you are just being brainwashed by big Pharma.
- junon 5y ago
  I wish I had the time to make a chrome extension that replaced all usages of "big pharma" with "a thing I don't personally understand but hand-wave away because I refuse to do proper research on my own". It would make such comments much more meaningful and honest.
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    Said like someone who completely avoid the whole argument by convenience. Big Pharma is a thing. A consolidated industry with very few major players who have huge regulatory capture. You can either continue being blind to it or realize they have a disproportionate influence in how decisions are taken.
    - junon 5y ago
      Pharmaseutical companies cannot just place products on the shelf without regulation. And no, they do not have some conspired place in the government rungs that gives them any sort of sway. There were LOADS of pharma companies that were denied the ability to produce a vaccine because they didn't meet the requirements. And just like your doctors aren't incentivized to misdiagnose you to run more tests and get more money from you, pharma companies are not incentivized to mislead patients and make them think they need 10 shots when 1 will do. There are so, so many independent research groups, including several in the government, that would love to publish findings that pharma companies are misleading people. It does happen, but not often.
  - bavell 5y ago
NullPrefix 5y ago
Were you hoping to get autism? To get programming superpowers or something.
devmunchies 5y ago
> It’s like getting a superpower in a video game It’s more like rare candy in Pokémon, which isn’t as good as naturally leveling up your Pokémon.

tux3 5y ago

I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong, but I would be more careful than that. Infections can be the trigger for auto-immune diseases. We're not sure precisely how, but there seems to be a complex combination of genetic and environmental factors. Your immune system is very much not playing games, it's in the business of reacting on a hair trigger, and doing more damage to foreign bodies than it does to your own body. It has an intricate system to avoid turning against yourself, but the system can fail. If a B cell that produces auto-antibodies falls through the cracks, it will not die. You now have the problem of being in a permanent fight against your own immune system, with a variety of unfortunate results. Now that's a lot of scary outcomes, and thankfully those diseases are uncommon. The system almost always works well. But it's a very complex system with ugly failure modes, so I wouldn't encourage you to poke the beast too much.

dr_dshiv 5y ago
This would be like being worried about playing outside and being exposed to germs. Yes, it’s true that every new infection has the possibility of killing you. But, now we have evidence that exposure to diverse mild pathogens actually makes your immune system less dangerous to the self. Otherwise it would be safer to live in a clean room.
- tux3 5y ago
  I agree you should not try to live in a clean room, and you shouldn't be worried about being exposed to normal amount of germs. When you say "exposure to diverse mild pathogens actually makes your immune system less dangerous to the self", I suspect you're referring to the hygiene hypothesis that has become part of popular culture. It's important to know that that hypothesis, nowadays, is about early exposure to benign microbes. Meaning from in utero exposure to early childhood at the latest. I have seen no evidence that voluntarily exposing yourself to pathogens is a good idea. The point to my post was that you shouldn't understand the immune system like an RPG element that needs training to level up. Please do get vaccinated for relevant diseases, but I would not go too far in the direction of treating your immune system like a safe thing to play with.
  - freen 5y ago
    There is strong evidence that young children in congregate daycare have substantially stronger immune systems than children cared for at home who are only exposed to family members.
    - tux3 5y ago
      Could you link to that strong evidence? A lookup of systematic reviews on Cochrane & Epistemonikos paints the opposite picture, with a positive correlation between daycare attendance and respiratory tract disorders or asthma.
      - dr_dshiv 5y ago
        You got it: Roslund, M. I., Puhakka, R., Grönroos, M., Nurminen, N., Oikarinen, S., Gazali, A. M., ... & ADELE research group. (2020). Biodiversity intervention enhances immune regulation and health-associated commensal microbiota among daycare children. Science advances, 6(42), eaba2578.
        tux3 5y ago
        Thank you! Interesting to see an intervention trial. n=75 is what it is, given the possible confounders (could not control home environment, etc) but I'll be interested to read that in more details =)
  - rpmisms 5y ago
    I ate dirt as a child. Dirt is natural, healthy, and as long as the shit in it is broken down, pretty much harmless. I have a great immune system to this day. My little brother, who spent his early childhood in the city, is nowhere near as robust, and gets sick frequently. Just some anecdotal early-exposure advocacy.
kijin 5y ago
The risk/benefit calculation depends on where you live and/or plan to travel. I fear I'm beginning to forget what life was like before Covid, but IIRC people used to travel quite a lot. For example, Japanese encephalitis is rare in Japan, but only because many Japanese people have been vaccinated against it. It's endemic in most other parts of east, southeast, and south Asia. It kills 10K+ people every year, and it spreads through mosquito bites just like malaria. But most travelers only worry about malaria.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ekianjo 5y ago

> And, vaccines have general positive effects of health: https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-maga https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-maga... If you believe that vaccines may have potentially positive effects beyond their original scope, you must also be ready for the opposite, potential negative effects beyond their original scope. If you don't, you are just being brainwashed by big Pharma.

junon 5y ago
I wish I had the time to make a chrome extension that replaced all usages of "big pharma" with "a thing I don't personally understand but hand-wave away because I refuse to do proper research on my own". It would make such comments much more meaningful and honest.
- ekianjo 5y ago
  Said like someone who completely avoid the whole argument by convenience. Big Pharma is a thing. A consolidated industry with very few major players who have huge regulatory capture. You can either continue being blind to it or realize they have a disproportionate influence in how decisions are taken.
  - junon 5y ago
    Pharmaseutical companies cannot just place products on the shelf without regulation. And no, they do not have some conspired place in the government rungs that gives them any sort of sway. There were LOADS of pharma companies that were denied the ability to produce a vaccine because they didn't meet the requirements. And just like your doctors aren't incentivized to misdiagnose you to run more tests and get more money from you, pharma companies are not incentivized to mislead patients and make them think they need 10 shots when 1 will do. There are so, so many independent research groups, including several in the government, that would love to publish findings that pharma companies are misleading people. It does happen, but not often.
- bavell 5y ago

NullPrefix 5y ago

Were you hoping to get autism? To get programming superpowers or something.

devmunchies 5y ago

> It’s like getting a superpower in a video game It’s more like rare candy in Pokémon, which isn’t as good as naturally leveling up your Pokémon.