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That is a very anti-human understanding of how an employee should be treated. If that’s the case this person should never answer an email outside of working ho

by glenda 5y ago

That is a very anti-human understanding of how an employee should be treated. If that’s the case this person should never answer an email outside of working hours without getting paid for it. Any time they spend thinking about work outside of working hours should be compensated as well. If there is a work emergency she should not get involved unless they will get overtime. Wage theft is one of the most prevalent forms of theft in the United States. Employers are literally underpaying workers for the amount of time they spend working, which to me seems even more lazy, dishonest and delusional than taking a 30 minute break. As long as the work is getting done there is no problem with breaks.

34679 5y ago
I made no comment regarding how an employee should be treated. I spoke on how an employee should act. I made no comment implying that it's OK for employers to short their employees' wages. I simply pointed out that lying for financial gain is theft. I agree that employees should be payed for work outside of normal hours, such as e-mail, yet that does not change my stated position at all. I understand that "Wage theft is one of the most prevalent forms of theft", yet you seem to not understand that theft can go both ways.
- lazide 5y ago
  You seem to think that people should think when they are supposed to think, in a way that they are supposed to think, and at the exact time and place they are supposed to think - and consistently so. which generally isn’t the case for anyone I’ve ever met, especially for any length of time. Sometimes people are tired. Sometimes they need variety. Sometimes the work is boring. Sometimes the work is super exciting. Sometimes they have something going on on their lives that is distracting, sometimes they don’t. If a manager is trying to treat someone as a machine and force them to, like a machine, be predictable and consistent every time or treat them like they are broken - they are being hostile to that person as a normal human being, who doesn’t work that way. Employees who don’t leave for whatever reason will attempt to regulate it by pretending to be complying while actually ‘stealing’ rest when someone isn’t looking, or hiding ‘underperformance’ during slack times when no one is looking. This often also removes the ‘high’ points when they could be providing more insight or helping out more, because if they demonstrate those, it makes it more obvious there are ebbs and flows. Which is perfectly normal. You can argue about theft one way or another - it doesn’t change patterns of normal human behavior. That attitude just forces people to hide what is really going on so you don’t notice. People need incomes, and they need something to do. So there is pressure on them to comply. Businesses need people to do the things they need to have happen (which often suck or are inconvenient), so there is pressure for them to hire. Not recognizing the reality of the situation either is in , and getting overly selfish (or giving) or being unrealistic on how people work (on either side) is 1) always been a problem and not going away anytime soon, and 2) causes friction and problems for every side. If a employee is bad at balancing the reality of the situation out; the employee ends up switching jobs a lot or without a job If the manager is bad at it, they end up without stable employees and is constantly churning and burning - and has a low performance org.
  - 34679 5y ago
    What's wrong with being honest? If you need a break, say so. Why is that so hard? If your employer won't allow you to take the amount of breaks you need, then you and your employer are not compatible. You are faced with the task of finding a less demanding employer and your employer is faced with the task of finding a higher performing employee. Either party may be forced to modify their behavior until they obtain their desired level of stability, but only if people are honest about what's going on. Lying, stealing, and pretending a problem doesn't exist will not make it go away.
    - gopher_space 5y ago
      You've established a frictionless work environment with perfectly spherical employers and employees in your head. You have the base model down but it's an abstraction with no ties to reality. You won't be able to think about the subject accurately until you get more experience under your belt. People generally learn the answer to "what's wrong with being honest" on the job.
      - 34679 5y ago
        That's insane. The only thing I've established is that people shouldn't spend half an hour kicking it on the couch while expecting to get paid. Anyone who does expect to be paid for that time and uses software to make it seem like they were working is a liar guilty of theft. Notice that I've not commented on things like bathroom breaks. I specifically pointed out the example of defrauding a client or employer for relatively large blocks of time. My first job was in 1995. Even then I knew it would be wrong to put an inaccurate time on the timecard for my benefit.
        gopher_space 5y ago
        You haven't addressed internal motivation or external drag in your model. There's always an answer to the "why don't they just.." kind of questions, and if your model doesn't encompass those it won't be useful. > Anyone who does expect to be paid for that time and uses software to make it seem like they were working is a liar guilty of theft. Automating systems to hit a specific metric is like most of HN's livelihood. If the work is getting done why does it matter how easy they've made it?
- truculent 5y ago
  The point is that you cannot consider one without the other. If you have no flexibility on employee behaviour, then you should have no flexibility on employer behaviour, either. This is the nature of contracts. Thus, a comment on how an employee should behave implies employer behaviour, too.
  - 34679 5y ago
    At what point did I imply that employers should be allowed to lie and steal from their employees?

by glenda 5y ago

34679 5y ago

I made no comment regarding how an employee should be treated. I spoke on how an employee should act. I made no comment implying that it's OK for employers to short their employees' wages. I simply pointed out that lying for financial gain is theft. I agree that employees should be payed for work outside of normal hours, such as e-mail, yet that does not change my stated position at all. I understand that "Wage theft is one of the most prevalent forms of theft", yet you seem to not understand that theft can go both ways.

lazide 5y ago
You seem to think that people should think when they are supposed to think, in a way that they are supposed to think, and at the exact time and place they are supposed to think - and consistently so. which generally isn’t the case for anyone I’ve ever met, especially for any length of time. Sometimes people are tired. Sometimes they need variety. Sometimes the work is boring. Sometimes the work is super exciting. Sometimes they have something going on on their lives that is distracting, sometimes they don’t. If a manager is trying to treat someone as a machine and force them to, like a machine, be predictable and consistent every time or treat them like they are broken - they are being hostile to that person as a normal human being, who doesn’t work that way. Employees who don’t leave for whatever reason will attempt to regulate it by pretending to be complying while actually ‘stealing’ rest when someone isn’t looking, or hiding ‘underperformance’ during slack times when no one is looking. This often also removes the ‘high’ points when they could be providing more insight or helping out more, because if they demonstrate those, it makes it more obvious there are ebbs and flows. Which is perfectly normal. You can argue about theft one way or another - it doesn’t change patterns of normal human behavior. That attitude just forces people to hide what is really going on so you don’t notice. People need incomes, and they need something to do. So there is pressure on them to comply. Businesses need people to do the things they need to have happen (which often suck or are inconvenient), so there is pressure for them to hire. Not recognizing the reality of the situation either is in , and getting overly selfish (or giving) or being unrealistic on how people work (on either side) is 1) always been a problem and not going away anytime soon, and 2) causes friction and problems for every side. If a employee is bad at balancing the reality of the situation out; the employee ends up switching jobs a lot or without a job If the manager is bad at it, they end up without stable employees and is constantly churning and burning - and has a low performance org.
- 34679 5y ago
  What's wrong with being honest? If you need a break, say so. Why is that so hard? If your employer won't allow you to take the amount of breaks you need, then you and your employer are not compatible. You are faced with the task of finding a less demanding employer and your employer is faced with the task of finding a higher performing employee. Either party may be forced to modify their behavior until they obtain their desired level of stability, but only if people are honest about what's going on. Lying, stealing, and pretending a problem doesn't exist will not make it go away.
  - gopher_space 5y ago
    You've established a frictionless work environment with perfectly spherical employers and employees in your head. You have the base model down but it's an abstraction with no ties to reality. You won't be able to think about the subject accurately until you get more experience under your belt. People generally learn the answer to "what's wrong with being honest" on the job.
    - 34679 5y ago
      That's insane. The only thing I've established is that people shouldn't spend half an hour kicking it on the couch while expecting to get paid. Anyone who does expect to be paid for that time and uses software to make it seem like they were working is a liar guilty of theft. Notice that I've not commented on things like bathroom breaks. I specifically pointed out the example of defrauding a client or employer for relatively large blocks of time. My first job was in 1995. Even then I knew it would be wrong to put an inaccurate time on the timecard for my benefit.
      - gopher_space 5y ago
        You haven't addressed internal motivation or external drag in your model. There's always an answer to the "why don't they just.." kind of questions, and if your model doesn't encompass those it won't be useful. > Anyone who does expect to be paid for that time and uses software to make it seem like they were working is a liar guilty of theft. Automating systems to hit a specific metric is like most of HN's livelihood. If the work is getting done why does it matter how easy they've made it?
truculent 5y ago
The point is that you cannot consider one without the other. If you have no flexibility on employee behaviour, then you should have no flexibility on employer behaviour, either. This is the nature of contracts. Thus, a comment on how an employee should behave implies employer behaviour, too.
- 34679 5y ago
  At what point did I imply that employers should be allowed to lie and steal from their employees?