5 ms·

There are belief systems that promote making children (Amish, Islam, etc.). Populations that practice these systems will eventually take over.

mk81 5y ago
The absolute most illiberal ideologies. Yay!
lotsofpulp 5y ago
I would be curious to see how the birth rate in those populations would fare if the women in those populations had financial independence.
- brigandish 5y ago
  That's so obvious that the writers of those religions gave women little to no financial independence.
- tenpies 5y ago
  Probably just as well? That seems like a page from the usual Western feminist perspective that if a woman isn't pursuing STEM, wanting to be a corporate "girl-Boss", or a she-preneur; she's surely a victim of a barbaric sexist culture instead of an individual actor just avoiding pursuits that she doesn't find appealing. I mean you're talking about religion here. It's almost a universal that religion takes some of the best and brightest people it has and then has them dedicate their lives to something that has no material rewards, much less "financial independence".
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    There is a vast difference in birth rates in cultures where women have 3+ kids as the norm and cultures where women have 1 or 2 kids as the norm. I do not know any aunts or cousins that wanted to have more than 2 kids, maybe one or two that had 3. And almost all came from moms or grandmas that has 3+ kids, usually 4 or 5. It has nothing to do with Western feminist or STEM or whatever political nonsense, it is simply a result of giving birth and breastfeeding being a very costly event with very real risks for almost all women.
    - klipt 5y ago
      > giving birth and breastfeeding being a very costly event with very real risks for almost all women. Natural selection suggests that women who find giving birth and breastfeeding more difficult than average women, will die off over time and be replaced by the descendents of those women who found it easier than average women.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Natural selection does not work in timescales relevant to discussions about our civilizations.
        klipt 5y ago
        It works faster on cultures than on genes, of course. That's called "memetic evolution".
      - GioM 5y ago
        If you consider only the selection pressure from the mother’s side then yes that is the case. However you must consider that the mother and the father are in an arms race with respect to the carrying capacity of the mother. The selection pressure from the father will always tend towards an offspring that is the maximum capacity at which the mother can bear.
        FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
        That's true only if the selection pressure on individual children favors largeness, right? On an island or without as much nutrition, it might be an advantage to be smaller, since you could get by on less food.
        klipt 5y ago
        That's a prisoner's dilemma situation. As a group, smaller islanders are less likely to run out of food (the cooperation strategy). But as an individual, a bigger islander can beat up the smaller ones and take their food (the defection strategy). Of course if everyone defects, the group as a whole is worse off.
  - watwut 5y ago
    Financial dependence makes massive difference in peoples lives and that includes non materialistic religious people. It is not about being the boss. It is about being able to make decisions for yourself. Decision not to marry, for example. Or, decision to leave the relationship without ending up poor. It makes difference in terms of who gets to decide whether you have another kid or not. Or, whether you will be in couple in the first place. Religious people still have all the human issues and needs. They have disagreements or even power struggles within their families, they have mix of failing and working families. And when you and your kids completely depends on somebody else that someone else will by able to make quite a lot of decisions for you. Also, regardless of religion, ability of women to be financially independent and make decisions for herself in fact does lower average birth rates pretty consistently.
FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
First there was B.1, then there was delta, then there was omicron.
watwut 5y ago
Christianity too. On the extreme side, quiverful or evangelicals.

mk81 5y ago

The absolute most illiberal ideologies. Yay!

lotsofpulp 5y ago

I would be curious to see how the birth rate in those populations would fare if the women in those populations had financial independence.

brigandish 5y ago
That's so obvious that the writers of those religions gave women little to no financial independence.
tenpies 5y ago
Probably just as well? That seems like a page from the usual Western feminist perspective that if a woman isn't pursuing STEM, wanting to be a corporate "girl-Boss", or a she-preneur; she's surely a victim of a barbaric sexist culture instead of an individual actor just avoiding pursuits that she doesn't find appealing. I mean you're talking about religion here. It's almost a universal that religion takes some of the best and brightest people it has and then has them dedicate their lives to something that has no material rewards, much less "financial independence".
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  There is a vast difference in birth rates in cultures where women have 3+ kids as the norm and cultures where women have 1 or 2 kids as the norm. I do not know any aunts or cousins that wanted to have more than 2 kids, maybe one or two that had 3. And almost all came from moms or grandmas that has 3+ kids, usually 4 or 5. It has nothing to do with Western feminist or STEM or whatever political nonsense, it is simply a result of giving birth and breastfeeding being a very costly event with very real risks for almost all women.
  - klipt 5y ago
    > giving birth and breastfeeding being a very costly event with very real risks for almost all women. Natural selection suggests that women who find giving birth and breastfeeding more difficult than average women, will die off over time and be replaced by the descendents of those women who found it easier than average women.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Natural selection does not work in timescales relevant to discussions about our civilizations.
      - klipt 5y ago
        It works faster on cultures than on genes, of course. That's called "memetic evolution".
    - GioM 5y ago
      If you consider only the selection pressure from the mother’s side then yes that is the case. However you must consider that the mother and the father are in an arms race with respect to the carrying capacity of the mother. The selection pressure from the father will always tend towards an offspring that is the maximum capacity at which the mother can bear.
      - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
        That's true only if the selection pressure on individual children favors largeness, right? On an island or without as much nutrition, it might be an advantage to be smaller, since you could get by on less food.
        klipt 5y ago
        That's a prisoner's dilemma situation. As a group, smaller islanders are less likely to run out of food (the cooperation strategy). But as an individual, a bigger islander can beat up the smaller ones and take their food (the defection strategy). Of course if everyone defects, the group as a whole is worse off.
- watwut 5y ago
  Financial dependence makes massive difference in peoples lives and that includes non materialistic religious people. It is not about being the boss. It is about being able to make decisions for yourself. Decision not to marry, for example. Or, decision to leave the relationship without ending up poor. It makes difference in terms of who gets to decide whether you have another kid or not. Or, whether you will be in couple in the first place. Religious people still have all the human issues and needs. They have disagreements or even power struggles within their families, they have mix of failing and working families. And when you and your kids completely depends on somebody else that someone else will by able to make quite a lot of decisions for you. Also, regardless of religion, ability of women to be financially independent and make decisions for herself in fact does lower average birth rates pretty consistently.

FooBarBizBazz 5y ago

First there was B.1, then there was delta, then there was omicron.

watwut 5y ago

Christianity too. On the extreme side, quiverful or evangelicals.