5 ms·

Sinterklaas actually has a lot of pre-Christian aspects (such as Zwarte Piet's bag). The mythic figure of St. Nicholas probably predates the arrival of Catholic

by shakna 5y ago

Sinterklaas actually has a lot of pre-Christian aspects (such as Zwarte Piet's bag). The mythic figure of St. Nicholas probably predates the arrival of Catholicism in the Netherlands. (The non-mythic figure of St. Nicholas was also an actual person and not just a fairy tale, as is common with this kind of mythology.)

DonHopkins 5y ago
Ironically Sinterklass and his cringe-worthy blackfaced Zwarte Piet servants would have sided with the racist pro-slavery Confederacy, not the Union. The racist pro-Piet hooligans in the Netherlands who still support Zwarte Piet like to celebrate the birth and teachings of Our Lord Jesus H Christ The Savior by gathering in crowds, hurling eggs, shouting racist insults, smashing windows, vandalizing cars, and shooting off fireworks against anti-racist protestors, who find Zwarte Piet's blackface and oversized red lips and black afro wigs and demeaningly stereotypical childish behavior a racist and offensive remnant of the Netherland's colonial past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Notable_events_during_the_21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Notable_events_dur... >During intocht celebrations throughout November 2018, violent incidents took place in the cities and towns of Nijmegen, The Hague, Leeuwarden, Den Helder, Rotterdam, and elsewhere. In Eindhoven, anti-Piet demonstrators were surrounded by an estimated group of 250 people described as "football hooligans" who attacked them with eggs and shouted racist insults. A similar protest in Tilburg led to the arrest of 44 pro-Piet demonstrators.[41] [41] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/11/amnesty-international-mps-call-on-pm-to-condemn-pro-piet-violence/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/11/amnesty-international-... >In 2019, it was decided that the nationally-televised arrival of Sinterklaas hosted by Apeldoorn would feature only sooty versions.[42] That November, a group called Kick Out Zwarte Piet were attacked during a meeting. Windows were smashed, nearby vehicles were vandalized, and fireworks were shot into the building where the group was planning protests in 12 communities that still feature traditional versions of the character.[43] In June 2020, American broadcaster NBC and Netflix opted to remove footage of a character dressed as Zwarte Piet from an episode of The Office. Series creator Greg Daniels released a statement saying that "blackface is unacceptable and making the point so graphically is hurtful and wrong. I am sorry for the pain that caused."[44] [42] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/netherlands-christmas-parade-to-replace-blackface-make-up-with-soot-1.4022373 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/netherlands-chr... [Kick Out Zwarte Piet] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_Out_Zwarte_Piet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_Out_Zwarte_Piet [43] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/11/zwarte-piet-protest-group-accuses-police-of-failing-to-protect-it-from-violent-attacks/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/11/zwarte-piet-protest-gr... [44] https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/the-office-blackface-dwight-christmas-black-peter-netflix-nbc/ https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/the-office-blackface-dwight-chr... >Prime Minister Mark Rutte stated in a parliamentary debate on 5 June 2020 that he had changed his opinion on the issue and now better understands why many people consider the character's appearance to be racist.[45] In August 2020, Facebook updated its policies to ban depictions of blackface on its Facebook and Instagram platforms, including traditional blackface depictions of Zwarte Piet.[46] In October 2020, Google banned advertising featuring Zwarte Piet, including soot versions without blackface.[47] Additional companies followed suit, among them Bol, Amazon, and Coolblue, who each decided to remove traditional Zwarte Piet products and promotions from their services.[48][49] In November 2020, Vereniging van Openbare Bibliotheken, a national association of public libraries, also announced that they were in the process of removing books featuring Zwarte Piet from library shelves.[50] [45] https://nos.nl/artikel/2336254-rutte-ik-ben-anders-gaan-denken-over-zwarte-piet.html https://nos.nl/artikel/2336254-rutte-ik-ben-anders-gaan-denk... [46] https://thenextweb.com/facebook/2020/08/11/facebook-is-banning-controversial-dutch-character-zwarte-piet/ https://thenextweb.com/facebook/2020/08/11/facebook-is-banni... [47] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/10/google-to-ban-zwarte-piet-sooty-replacement-as-a-racial-stereotype/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/10/google-to-ban-zwarte-p... [48] https://www.welingelichtekringen.nl/samenleving/2036146/bol-com-doet-zwarte-piet-helemaal-weg.html https://www.welingelichtekringen.nl/samenleving/2036146/bol-... [49] https://nltimes.nl/2020/08/26/amazon-also-bans-blackface-zwarte-piet-products https://nltimes.nl/2020/08/26/amazon-also-bans-blackface-zwa... [50] https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/bibliotheken-verwijderen-boeken-met-zwarte-piet-smaldeel-bepaalt-niet-ons-beleid~a6ab9176/ https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/bibliotheken-verwijderen-boeken...
- mpol 5y ago
  "Ironically Sinterklass and his cringe-worthy blackfaced Zwarte Piet servants would have sided with the racist pro-slavery Confederacy, not the Union." No, just no. They are freed slaves, freed by St. Nicolas. The discussion in the Netherlands is just something from the last 10 years. Many people have a very moderate opinion about it, but on both sides there are extremists, which is what the media focuses on.
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    The story about freeing slaves is just a revisionist rationalization, just like the more recent revisionist rationalization that they're not really black skinned Moores, but just white people covered in soot. They were originally enslaved demons forced to assist their captor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Origins >The Saint Nicholas tradition contains a number of elements that are not ecclesiastical in origin.[16][17] In medieval iconography, Saint Nicholas is sometimes presented as taming a chained demon, who may or may not be black. However, no hint of a companion, demon, servant, or any other human or human-like fixed companion to the Saint is found in visual and textual sources from the Netherlands from the 16th until the 19th century.[18] According to a long-standing theory first proposed by Karl Meisen,[19] Zwarte Piet and his equivalents in Germanic Europe were originally presented as one or more enslaved demons forced to assist their captor. These chained and fire-scorched demons may have been redeveloped as black-skinned humans during the early 19th-century in the Netherlands in the likeness of Moors who work as servants for Saint Nicholas.[20] Others believe Zwarte Piet to be a continuation of a custom in which people with blackface appeared in winter solstice rituals.[21] Since we can all agree Zwarte Piet is actually all just fiction, and that it was ok to change the story numerous times as society evolved to be less religiously fanatic and racist, then why are so-called "moderate" people you're defending still clinging to the racist iconography of blackface and big painted red lips and black afros? If they can change the story from Zwarte Piets being chained and fire-scorched enslaved demons forced to assist their captor, to merely black-skinned freed human slaves, then from that to soot-stained Caucasians, then why are so-called "moderate" people so upset about changing "tradition" yet again? So what's wrong with being extremely anti-racist and protesting peacefully, instead of only "moderately" against racism, while racists are still violently rioting in the streets of the Netherlands and attacking both police and peaceful protestors? And why after 10 years of open public discussion are hooligans still shouting racist insults, throwing eggs, pelting police with fireworks, and rioting in the streets in support of Zwarte Piet? NOVEMBER 16, 2020: Riot police deployed in Zwarte Piet demonstration in Maastricht: https://dutchreview.com/news/riot-police-deployed-in-kozp-demonstration-in-maastricht/ https://dutchreview.com/news/riot-police-deployed-in-kozp-de... >On Saturday afternoon, a planned demonstration against Zwarte Piet in Maastricht was disrupted by counter-protesters. Tensions at the scene escalated, leading to violence and police intervention. >The action group Kick Out Zwarte (KOZP) had a permit from the municipality to demonstrate against the blackface character on the Vrijthof (a central square). But when counter-protesters gathered and the atmosphere became threatening, the police mobile unit had to intervene. >They used horses and dogs to keep the counter-protesters at a distance. The police were pelted with fireworks. >KOZP spokesperson tells NU that demonstrating at the second scene was impossible. “That place was almost next to the Vrijthof. There were a lot of threats and a lot of violence. People threw things and there was shouting. We, therefore, stopped our action prematurely.” DECEMBER 4, 2021: Kick Out Zwarte Piet protesters pelted with eggs, oliebollen and firecrackers in Volendam: https://nltimes.nl/2021/12/04/kick-zwarte-piet-protesters-pelted-eggs-oliebollen-firecrackers-volendam https://nltimes.nl/2021/12/04/kick-zwarte-piet-protesters-pe... >A group of people in Volendam attacked Kick Out Zwarte Piet (KOZP) protesters with, among other objects, eggs, oliebollen and firecrackers. KOZP was protesting against "structural racism" in the village. >Police escorted several dozen demonstrators back to their buses. The protesters left the village around 1 p.m. under police escort. >According to KOZP spokesman Jerry Afriyie, they were pelted with "anything and everything," including fruit and oliebollen from the nearby market. Police did not confirm the number of people who attacked the protestors in Volendam. >While officers kept the groups apart, they were also pelted with eggs and oliebollen. According to Afriyie, some of the windows of the bus were damaged. Some of the people attacking the protestors also threw firecrackers. And please give me a break with your false equivalence "both sides" white-washing rationalization of blackface and violent racist behavior: The behavior of the pro-Zwarte Piet hooligans you're defending with your false equivalence is FAR WORSE than the anti-racist protestors and police in riot gear who they're violently attacking, which is ironic because Zwarte Piet is supposed to punish people for bad behavior. So why are they violently fighting against anti-racist protestors and riot control police for something they don't even believe in, if it's not actually just about racism? If the mythology of Zwarte Piet was supposed to teach children to behave well and treat each other with respect in celebration of Jesus Christ's birthday, then it has failed miserably and become a shibboleth and symbol of racism, so it should be disposed of in the dustbin of history.

by shakna 5y ago

DonHopkins 5y ago

Ironically Sinterklass and his cringe-worthy blackfaced Zwarte Piet servants would have sided with the racist pro-slavery Confederacy, not the Union. The racist pro-Piet hooligans in the Netherlands who still support Zwarte Piet like to celebrate the birth and teachings of Our Lord Jesus H Christ The Savior by gathering in crowds, hurling eggs, shouting racist insults, smashing windows, vandalizing cars, and shooting off fireworks against anti-racist protestors, who find Zwarte Piet's blackface and oversized red lips and black afro wigs and demeaningly stereotypical childish behavior a racist and offensive remnant of the Netherland's colonial past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Notable_events_during_the_21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Notable_events_dur... >During intocht celebrations throughout November 2018, violent incidents took place in the cities and towns of Nijmegen, The Hague, Leeuwarden, Den Helder, Rotterdam, and elsewhere. In Eindhoven, anti-Piet demonstrators were surrounded by an estimated group of 250 people described as "football hooligans" who attacked them with eggs and shouted racist insults. A similar protest in Tilburg led to the arrest of 44 pro-Piet demonstrators.[41] [41] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/11/amnesty-international-mps-call-on-pm-to-condemn-pro-piet-violence/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/11/amnesty-international-... >In 2019, it was decided that the nationally-televised arrival of Sinterklaas hosted by Apeldoorn would feature only sooty versions.[42] That November, a group called Kick Out Zwarte Piet were attacked during a meeting. Windows were smashed, nearby vehicles were vandalized, and fireworks were shot into the building where the group was planning protests in 12 communities that still feature traditional versions of the character.[43] In June 2020, American broadcaster NBC and Netflix opted to remove footage of a character dressed as Zwarte Piet from an episode of The Office. Series creator Greg Daniels released a statement saying that "blackface is unacceptable and making the point so graphically is hurtful and wrong. I am sorry for the pain that caused."[44] [42] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/netherlands-christmas-parade-to-replace-blackface-make-up-with-soot-1.4022373 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/netherlands-chr... [Kick Out Zwarte Piet] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_Out_Zwarte_Piet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_Out_Zwarte_Piet [43] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/11/zwarte-piet-protest-group-accuses-police-of-failing-to-protect-it-from-violent-attacks/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/11/zwarte-piet-protest-gr... [44] https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/the-office-blackface-dwight-christmas-black-peter-netflix-nbc/ https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/the-office-blackface-dwight-chr... >Prime Minister Mark Rutte stated in a parliamentary debate on 5 June 2020 that he had changed his opinion on the issue and now better understands why many people consider the character's appearance to be racist.[45] In August 2020, Facebook updated its policies to ban depictions of blackface on its Facebook and Instagram platforms, including traditional blackface depictions of Zwarte Piet.[46] In October 2020, Google banned advertising featuring Zwarte Piet, including soot versions without blackface.[47] Additional companies followed suit, among them Bol, Amazon, and Coolblue, who each decided to remove traditional Zwarte Piet products and promotions from their services.[48][49] In November 2020, Vereniging van Openbare Bibliotheken, a national association of public libraries, also announced that they were in the process of removing books featuring Zwarte Piet from library shelves.[50] [45] https://nos.nl/artikel/2336254-rutte-ik-ben-anders-gaan-denken-over-zwarte-piet.html https://nos.nl/artikel/2336254-rutte-ik-ben-anders-gaan-denk... [46] https://thenextweb.com/facebook/2020/08/11/facebook-is-banning-controversial-dutch-character-zwarte-piet/ https://thenextweb.com/facebook/2020/08/11/facebook-is-banni... [47] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/10/google-to-ban-zwarte-piet-sooty-replacement-as-a-racial-stereotype/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/10/google-to-ban-zwarte-p... [48] https://www.welingelichtekringen.nl/samenleving/2036146/bol-com-doet-zwarte-piet-helemaal-weg.html https://www.welingelichtekringen.nl/samenleving/2036146/bol-... [49] https://nltimes.nl/2020/08/26/amazon-also-bans-blackface-zwarte-piet-products https://nltimes.nl/2020/08/26/amazon-also-bans-blackface-zwa... [50] https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/bibliotheken-verwijderen-boeken-met-zwarte-piet-smaldeel-bepaalt-niet-ons-beleid~a6ab9176/ https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/bibliotheken-verwijderen-boeken...

mpol 5y ago
"Ironically Sinterklass and his cringe-worthy blackfaced Zwarte Piet servants would have sided with the racist pro-slavery Confederacy, not the Union." No, just no. They are freed slaves, freed by St. Nicolas. The discussion in the Netherlands is just something from the last 10 years. Many people have a very moderate opinion about it, but on both sides there are extremists, which is what the media focuses on.
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  The story about freeing slaves is just a revisionist rationalization, just like the more recent revisionist rationalization that they're not really black skinned Moores, but just white people covered in soot. They were originally enslaved demons forced to assist their captor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Origins >The Saint Nicholas tradition contains a number of elements that are not ecclesiastical in origin.[16][17] In medieval iconography, Saint Nicholas is sometimes presented as taming a chained demon, who may or may not be black. However, no hint of a companion, demon, servant, or any other human or human-like fixed companion to the Saint is found in visual and textual sources from the Netherlands from the 16th until the 19th century.[18] According to a long-standing theory first proposed by Karl Meisen,[19] Zwarte Piet and his equivalents in Germanic Europe were originally presented as one or more enslaved demons forced to assist their captor. These chained and fire-scorched demons may have been redeveloped as black-skinned humans during the early 19th-century in the Netherlands in the likeness of Moors who work as servants for Saint Nicholas.[20] Others believe Zwarte Piet to be a continuation of a custom in which people with blackface appeared in winter solstice rituals.[21] Since we can all agree Zwarte Piet is actually all just fiction, and that it was ok to change the story numerous times as society evolved to be less religiously fanatic and racist, then why are so-called "moderate" people you're defending still clinging to the racist iconography of blackface and big painted red lips and black afros? If they can change the story from Zwarte Piets being chained and fire-scorched enslaved demons forced to assist their captor, to merely black-skinned freed human slaves, then from that to soot-stained Caucasians, then why are so-called "moderate" people so upset about changing "tradition" yet again? So what's wrong with being extremely anti-racist and protesting peacefully, instead of only "moderately" against racism, while racists are still violently rioting in the streets of the Netherlands and attacking both police and peaceful protestors? And why after 10 years of open public discussion are hooligans still shouting racist insults, throwing eggs, pelting police with fireworks, and rioting in the streets in support of Zwarte Piet? NOVEMBER 16, 2020: Riot police deployed in Zwarte Piet demonstration in Maastricht: https://dutchreview.com/news/riot-police-deployed-in-kozp-demonstration-in-maastricht/ https://dutchreview.com/news/riot-police-deployed-in-kozp-de... >On Saturday afternoon, a planned demonstration against Zwarte Piet in Maastricht was disrupted by counter-protesters. Tensions at the scene escalated, leading to violence and police intervention. >The action group Kick Out Zwarte (KOZP) had a permit from the municipality to demonstrate against the blackface character on the Vrijthof (a central square). But when counter-protesters gathered and the atmosphere became threatening, the police mobile unit had to intervene. >They used horses and dogs to keep the counter-protesters at a distance. The police were pelted with fireworks. >KOZP spokesperson tells NU that demonstrating at the second scene was impossible. “That place was almost next to the Vrijthof. There were a lot of threats and a lot of violence. People threw things and there was shouting. We, therefore, stopped our action prematurely.” DECEMBER 4, 2021: Kick Out Zwarte Piet protesters pelted with eggs, oliebollen and firecrackers in Volendam: https://nltimes.nl/2021/12/04/kick-zwarte-piet-protesters-pelted-eggs-oliebollen-firecrackers-volendam https://nltimes.nl/2021/12/04/kick-zwarte-piet-protesters-pe... >A group of people in Volendam attacked Kick Out Zwarte Piet (KOZP) protesters with, among other objects, eggs, oliebollen and firecrackers. KOZP was protesting against "structural racism" in the village. >Police escorted several dozen demonstrators back to their buses. The protesters left the village around 1 p.m. under police escort. >According to KOZP spokesman Jerry Afriyie, they were pelted with "anything and everything," including fruit and oliebollen from the nearby market. Police did not confirm the number of people who attacked the protestors in Volendam. >While officers kept the groups apart, they were also pelted with eggs and oliebollen. According to Afriyie, some of the windows of the bus were damaged. Some of the people attacking the protestors also threw firecrackers. And please give me a break with your false equivalence "both sides" white-washing rationalization of blackface and violent racist behavior: The behavior of the pro-Zwarte Piet hooligans you're defending with your false equivalence is FAR WORSE than the anti-racist protestors and police in riot gear who they're violently attacking, which is ironic because Zwarte Piet is supposed to punish people for bad behavior. So why are they violently fighting against anti-racist protestors and riot control police for something they don't even believe in, if it's not actually just about racism? If the mythology of Zwarte Piet was supposed to teach children to behave well and treat each other with respect in celebration of Jesus Christ's birthday, then it has failed miserably and become a shibboleth and symbol of racism, so it should be disposed of in the dustbin of history.