8 ms·

Fascinating, as I always thought it was based on a person called St Nicholas(and it sort of is) but never really knew it's roots in modern times. Here is an a

Fascinating, as I always thought it was based on a person called St Nicholas(and it sort of is) but never really knew it's roots in modern times. Here is an album made by the same artist on Santa Claus. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Santa_Claus_by_Thomas_Nast https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Santa_Claus_by_T...

trasz 5y ago
“St Nicholas” is just a Catholic fairy tale; an attempt to fabricate history to connect Santa Claus to religion.
- schleck8 5y ago
  You are wrong > The Dutch are credited with transporting the legend of St. Nicholas (Sinterklaas) to New Amsterdam (now New York City), along with the custom of giving gifts and sweets to children on his feast day, December 6. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Santa-Claus https://www.britannica.com/topic/Santa-Claus It's a fact that St. Nicholas existed, and that he was portrait with a white beard and red clothing a millenia ago. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nikola_from_1294.jpg#mw-jump-to-license https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nikola_from_1294.j... Maybe have some more respect for other peoples' culture, especially when linked to spirituality.
  - galgalesh 5y ago
    As someone from the Flemish (dutch-speaking) part of Belgium, I can honestly say that is a very US-centric view you have. In the Netherlands, the custom of "Sinterklaas", which was brought to the US and became Santa Klaus, predates Christianity coming to the Netherlands and Saint Nicholas was indeed created in order to be able to continue this "heathen" feast. It's origins are in the Celtic/Germanic midwinter fest of "Yule". During this fest, the god Wodan, rode on a horse, carried a staff, brought gifts to nice children and had devilish helpers who kidnapped the naughty children. This tradition is still strong in northern Europe, which was much less influenced by Christianity. Santa Klaus lore still has a lot of hints to the pagan origins. For example, the reindeer which pull Santa’s sleigh are called Donner and Blitzen-‘thunder and lightning’ from the Old Dutch ‘Dunder and Blixem’. (Wodan is the Germanic/celtic version of Odin.)
    - 123pie123 5y ago
      in the UK, I would say (based on my limited view point) that most people call him Father Christmas , but Santa Clause is sometimes used interchangeably
      - secondcoming 5y ago
        I'm not sure I'd agree at all with this.
    - goto11 5y ago
      Odin giving gifts to nice children? Sounds dubious. Is there any evidence for people having believed that?
    - christkv 5y ago
      You've got to watch https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1401143/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1401143/ for a laugh.
    - genewitch 5y ago
      Saint Nicolas is sinterklass and sinterklass is Santa Claus it's a language and culture issue.
    - user3939382 5y ago
      Rather than saying “it’s origins are x” which reads as if it’s either wholly or primarily based on x, I would say “it’s origins include” or something to that effect. To say “it’s origins are” doesn’t acknowledge the weight of Christian influence on the current tradition, as if it was perpetuated without being majorly changed. As Christianity spread, holidays and traditions from many parts of the world were subsumed by it. The history of the Church showed that it’s easier to change people’s religious beliefs than some of their cultural traditions. If theologically insignificant elements of a pre-existing pagan tradition got rolled into a Christian holiday that doesn’t mean the holiday is “actually pagan” or observers are giving some deference to a pagan god. That may not have been your message, but I wanted to point it out because I hear that very often by those who apparently have some axe to grind with the Church and come off as if the history of some Christian holidays is a big secret they uncovered.
  - adrian_b 5y ago
    Also in the Orthodox countries from Eastern Europe, the custom of St. Nicholas giving gifts to the good children and punishing the bad children, on December 6, was certainly existing in the middle of the 19th century (when December 6 was not on the same day as in the Western countries with Gregorian calendar), because it was mentioned in some books dating from that time, but probably the custom existed much earlier. In any case, the custom was not Catholic or Protestant but it existed all over Europe. However I have no idea about how he was depicted at that time and the custom was strictly about December 6, not the Christmas, and the gifts or punishments were also only for the children, not for adults.
- kzrdude 5y ago
  What's been very successful through history has been that new religions adapt, displace and take over old traditions. Midwinter celebrations to Christmas and so on, or why not jewish holidays given a new story in christianity while continuing to be celebrated at the same time of year or maybe even with the same food (originally). If one is optimistic, this "depth" of traditions surrounding christmas or maybe other holidays give them a bigger meaning, it can encompass all the different traditions at once.
- shakna 5y ago
  Sinterklaas actually has a lot of pre-Christian aspects (such as Zwarte Piet's bag). The mythic figure of St. Nicholas probably predates the arrival of Catholicism in the Netherlands. (The non-mythic figure of St. Nicholas was also an actual person and not just a fairy tale, as is common with this kind of mythology.)
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    Ironically Sinterklass and his cringe-worthy blackfaced Zwarte Piet servants would have sided with the racist pro-slavery Confederacy, not the Union. The racist pro-Piet hooligans in the Netherlands who still support Zwarte Piet like to celebrate the birth and teachings of Our Lord Jesus H Christ The Savior by gathering in crowds, hurling eggs, shouting racist insults, smashing windows, vandalizing cars, and shooting off fireworks against anti-racist protestors, who find Zwarte Piet's blackface and oversized red lips and black afro wigs and demeaningly stereotypical childish behavior a racist and offensive remnant of the Netherland's colonial past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Notable_events_during_the_21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Notable_events_dur... >During intocht celebrations throughout November 2018, violent incidents took place in the cities and towns of Nijmegen, The Hague, Leeuwarden, Den Helder, Rotterdam, and elsewhere. In Eindhoven, anti-Piet demonstrators were surrounded by an estimated group of 250 people described as "football hooligans" who attacked them with eggs and shouted racist insults. A similar protest in Tilburg led to the arrest of 44 pro-Piet demonstrators.[41] [41] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/11/amnesty-international-mps-call-on-pm-to-condemn-pro-piet-violence/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/11/amnesty-international-... >In 2019, it was decided that the nationally-televised arrival of Sinterklaas hosted by Apeldoorn would feature only sooty versions.[42] That November, a group called Kick Out Zwarte Piet were attacked during a meeting. Windows were smashed, nearby vehicles were vandalized, and fireworks were shot into the building where the group was planning protests in 12 communities that still feature traditional versions of the character.[43] In June 2020, American broadcaster NBC and Netflix opted to remove footage of a character dressed as Zwarte Piet from an episode of The Office. Series creator Greg Daniels released a statement saying that "blackface is unacceptable and making the point so graphically is hurtful and wrong. I am sorry for the pain that caused."[44] [42] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/netherlands-christmas-parade-to-replace-blackface-make-up-with-soot-1.4022373 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/netherlands-chr... [Kick Out Zwarte Piet] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_Out_Zwarte_Piet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_Out_Zwarte_Piet [43] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/11/zwarte-piet-protest-group-accuses-police-of-failing-to-protect-it-from-violent-attacks/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/11/zwarte-piet-protest-gr... [44] https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/the-office-blackface-dwight-christmas-black-peter-netflix-nbc/ https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/the-office-blackface-dwight-chr... >Prime Minister Mark Rutte stated in a parliamentary debate on 5 June 2020 that he had changed his opinion on the issue and now better understands why many people consider the character's appearance to be racist.[45] In August 2020, Facebook updated its policies to ban depictions of blackface on its Facebook and Instagram platforms, including traditional blackface depictions of Zwarte Piet.[46] In October 2020, Google banned advertising featuring Zwarte Piet, including soot versions without blackface.[47] Additional companies followed suit, among them Bol, Amazon, and Coolblue, who each decided to remove traditional Zwarte Piet products and promotions from their services.[48][49] In November 2020, Vereniging van Openbare Bibliotheken, a national association of public libraries, also announced that they were in the process of removing books featuring Zwarte Piet from library shelves.[50] [45] https://nos.nl/artikel/2336254-rutte-ik-ben-anders-gaan-denken-over-zwarte-piet.html https://nos.nl/artikel/2336254-rutte-ik-ben-anders-gaan-denk... [46] https://thenextweb.com/facebook/2020/08/11/facebook-is-banning-controversial-dutch-character-zwarte-piet/ https://thenextweb.com/facebook/2020/08/11/facebook-is-banni... [47] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/10/google-to-ban-zwarte-piet-sooty-replacement-as-a-racial-stereotype/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/10/google-to-ban-zwarte-p... [48] https://www.welingelichtekringen.nl/samenleving/2036146/bol-com-doet-zwarte-piet-helemaal-weg.html https://www.welingelichtekringen.nl/samenleving/2036146/bol-... [49] https://nltimes.nl/2020/08/26/amazon-also-bans-blackface-zwarte-piet-products https://nltimes.nl/2020/08/26/amazon-also-bans-blackface-zwa... [50] https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/bibliotheken-verwijderen-boeken-met-zwarte-piet-smaldeel-bepaalt-niet-ons-beleid~a6ab9176/ https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/bibliotheken-verwijderen-boeken...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
flohofwoe 5y ago
He is, and St. Nicholas was already shown with a red (bishop's) robe and white beard hundreds of years ago: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Myra#/media/Datei:NikolausMyra_Befreiung_Verurteilter.jpg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Myra#/media/Datei... https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Myra#/media/Datei:NikolausMyra_Kornwunder.jpg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Myra#/media/Datei... https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Myra#/media/Datei:NikolausMyra_Entlarvung_der_Diana.jpg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Myra#/media/Datei... (which doesn't mean that the Christians 'invented' Santa Claus of course, since the early European missionaries often 'adopted' earlier pagan traditions)

trasz 5y ago

“St Nicholas” is just a Catholic fairy tale; an attempt to fabricate history to connect Santa Claus to religion.

schleck8 5y ago
You are wrong > The Dutch are credited with transporting the legend of St. Nicholas (Sinterklaas) to New Amsterdam (now New York City), along with the custom of giving gifts and sweets to children on his feast day, December 6. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Santa-Claus https://www.britannica.com/topic/Santa-Claus It's a fact that St. Nicholas existed, and that he was portrait with a white beard and red clothing a millenia ago. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nikola_from_1294.jpg#mw-jump-to-license https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nikola_from_1294.j... Maybe have some more respect for other peoples' culture, especially when linked to spirituality.
- galgalesh 5y ago
  As someone from the Flemish (dutch-speaking) part of Belgium, I can honestly say that is a very US-centric view you have. In the Netherlands, the custom of "Sinterklaas", which was brought to the US and became Santa Klaus, predates Christianity coming to the Netherlands and Saint Nicholas was indeed created in order to be able to continue this "heathen" feast. It's origins are in the Celtic/Germanic midwinter fest of "Yule". During this fest, the god Wodan, rode on a horse, carried a staff, brought gifts to nice children and had devilish helpers who kidnapped the naughty children. This tradition is still strong in northern Europe, which was much less influenced by Christianity. Santa Klaus lore still has a lot of hints to the pagan origins. For example, the reindeer which pull Santa’s sleigh are called Donner and Blitzen-‘thunder and lightning’ from the Old Dutch ‘Dunder and Blixem’. (Wodan is the Germanic/celtic version of Odin.)
  - 123pie123 5y ago
    in the UK, I would say (based on my limited view point) that most people call him Father Christmas , but Santa Clause is sometimes used interchangeably
    - secondcoming 5y ago
      I'm not sure I'd agree at all with this.
  - goto11 5y ago
    Odin giving gifts to nice children? Sounds dubious. Is there any evidence for people having believed that?
  - christkv 5y ago
    You've got to watch https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1401143/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1401143/ for a laugh.
  - genewitch 5y ago
    Saint Nicolas is sinterklass and sinterklass is Santa Claus it's a language and culture issue.
  - user3939382 5y ago
    Rather than saying “it’s origins are x” which reads as if it’s either wholly or primarily based on x, I would say “it’s origins include” or something to that effect. To say “it’s origins are” doesn’t acknowledge the weight of Christian influence on the current tradition, as if it was perpetuated without being majorly changed. As Christianity spread, holidays and traditions from many parts of the world were subsumed by it. The history of the Church showed that it’s easier to change people’s religious beliefs than some of their cultural traditions. If theologically insignificant elements of a pre-existing pagan tradition got rolled into a Christian holiday that doesn’t mean the holiday is “actually pagan” or observers are giving some deference to a pagan god. That may not have been your message, but I wanted to point it out because I hear that very often by those who apparently have some axe to grind with the Church and come off as if the history of some Christian holidays is a big secret they uncovered.
- adrian_b 5y ago
  Also in the Orthodox countries from Eastern Europe, the custom of St. Nicholas giving gifts to the good children and punishing the bad children, on December 6, was certainly existing in the middle of the 19th century (when December 6 was not on the same day as in the Western countries with Gregorian calendar), because it was mentioned in some books dating from that time, but probably the custom existed much earlier. In any case, the custom was not Catholic or Protestant but it existed all over Europe. However I have no idea about how he was depicted at that time and the custom was strictly about December 6, not the Christmas, and the gifts or punishments were also only for the children, not for adults.
kzrdude 5y ago
What's been very successful through history has been that new religions adapt, displace and take over old traditions. Midwinter celebrations to Christmas and so on, or why not jewish holidays given a new story in christianity while continuing to be celebrated at the same time of year or maybe even with the same food (originally). If one is optimistic, this "depth" of traditions surrounding christmas or maybe other holidays give them a bigger meaning, it can encompass all the different traditions at once.
shakna 5y ago
Sinterklaas actually has a lot of pre-Christian aspects (such as Zwarte Piet's bag). The mythic figure of St. Nicholas probably predates the arrival of Catholicism in the Netherlands. (The non-mythic figure of St. Nicholas was also an actual person and not just a fairy tale, as is common with this kind of mythology.)
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  Ironically Sinterklass and his cringe-worthy blackfaced Zwarte Piet servants would have sided with the racist pro-slavery Confederacy, not the Union. The racist pro-Piet hooligans in the Netherlands who still support Zwarte Piet like to celebrate the birth and teachings of Our Lord Jesus H Christ The Savior by gathering in crowds, hurling eggs, shouting racist insults, smashing windows, vandalizing cars, and shooting off fireworks against anti-racist protestors, who find Zwarte Piet's blackface and oversized red lips and black afro wigs and demeaningly stereotypical childish behavior a racist and offensive remnant of the Netherland's colonial past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Notable_events_during_the_21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Notable_events_dur... >During intocht celebrations throughout November 2018, violent incidents took place in the cities and towns of Nijmegen, The Hague, Leeuwarden, Den Helder, Rotterdam, and elsewhere. In Eindhoven, anti-Piet demonstrators were surrounded by an estimated group of 250 people described as "football hooligans" who attacked them with eggs and shouted racist insults. A similar protest in Tilburg led to the arrest of 44 pro-Piet demonstrators.[41] [41] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/11/amnesty-international-mps-call-on-pm-to-condemn-pro-piet-violence/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/11/amnesty-international-... >In 2019, it was decided that the nationally-televised arrival of Sinterklaas hosted by Apeldoorn would feature only sooty versions.[42] That November, a group called Kick Out Zwarte Piet were attacked during a meeting. Windows were smashed, nearby vehicles were vandalized, and fireworks were shot into the building where the group was planning protests in 12 communities that still feature traditional versions of the character.[43] In June 2020, American broadcaster NBC and Netflix opted to remove footage of a character dressed as Zwarte Piet from an episode of The Office. Series creator Greg Daniels released a statement saying that "blackface is unacceptable and making the point so graphically is hurtful and wrong. I am sorry for the pain that caused."[44] [42] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/netherlands-christmas-parade-to-replace-blackface-make-up-with-soot-1.4022373 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/netherlands-chr... [Kick Out Zwarte Piet] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_Out_Zwarte_Piet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_Out_Zwarte_Piet [43] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/11/zwarte-piet-protest-group-accuses-police-of-failing-to-protect-it-from-violent-attacks/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/11/zwarte-piet-protest-gr... [44] https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/the-office-blackface-dwight-christmas-black-peter-netflix-nbc/ https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/the-office-blackface-dwight-chr... >Prime Minister Mark Rutte stated in a parliamentary debate on 5 June 2020 that he had changed his opinion on the issue and now better understands why many people consider the character's appearance to be racist.[45] In August 2020, Facebook updated its policies to ban depictions of blackface on its Facebook and Instagram platforms, including traditional blackface depictions of Zwarte Piet.[46] In October 2020, Google banned advertising featuring Zwarte Piet, including soot versions without blackface.[47] Additional companies followed suit, among them Bol, Amazon, and Coolblue, who each decided to remove traditional Zwarte Piet products and promotions from their services.[48][49] In November 2020, Vereniging van Openbare Bibliotheken, a national association of public libraries, also announced that they were in the process of removing books featuring Zwarte Piet from library shelves.[50] [45] https://nos.nl/artikel/2336254-rutte-ik-ben-anders-gaan-denken-over-zwarte-piet.html https://nos.nl/artikel/2336254-rutte-ik-ben-anders-gaan-denk... [46] https://thenextweb.com/facebook/2020/08/11/facebook-is-banning-controversial-dutch-character-zwarte-piet/ https://thenextweb.com/facebook/2020/08/11/facebook-is-banni... [47] https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/10/google-to-ban-zwarte-piet-sooty-replacement-as-a-racial-stereotype/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/10/google-to-ban-zwarte-p... [48] https://www.welingelichtekringen.nl/samenleving/2036146/bol-com-doet-zwarte-piet-helemaal-weg.html https://www.welingelichtekringen.nl/samenleving/2036146/bol-... [49] https://nltimes.nl/2020/08/26/amazon-also-bans-blackface-zwarte-piet-products https://nltimes.nl/2020/08/26/amazon-also-bans-blackface-zwa... [50] https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/bibliotheken-verwijderen-boeken-met-zwarte-piet-smaldeel-bepaalt-niet-ons-beleid~a6ab9176/ https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/bibliotheken-verwijderen-boeken...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

flohofwoe 5y ago

He is, and St. Nicholas was already shown with a red (bishop's) robe and white beard hundreds of years ago: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Myra#/media/Datei:NikolausMyra_Befreiung_Verurteilter.jpg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Myra#/media/Datei... https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Myra#/media/Datei:NikolausMyra_Kornwunder.jpg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Myra#/media/Datei... https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Myra#/media/Datei:NikolausMyra_Entlarvung_der_Diana.jpg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Myra#/media/Datei... (which doesn't mean that the Christians 'invented' Santa Claus of course, since the early European missionaries often 'adopted' earlier pagan traditions)