3 ms·

> He offers a long list of arguments and even though I don't check in node_modules, some of the arguments are compelling (...) Are they, really? The less deba

by fivea 5y ago

> He offers a long list of arguments and even though I don't check in node_modules, some of the arguments are compelling (...) Are they, really? The less debatable point is arguing that making CICD pipelines slightly faster, but this feels like an appeal to microoptimization. Any free tier CICD system out there let's you do a single npm install and move these dependencies as far as you'd like into the pipeline as artifacts. Is a git checkout really faster that a npm install? For example, is adding a npm dependency really invisible if you already track package.json and even package-lock.json? Those files show up in diffs, and it's hard to miss them. Also, if the goal is to get replicated builds, isn't this handled by pinning versions and tracking package-lock? The left_pad example is particularly ridiculous as I highly doubt that a company like Google, like any company that cares about auditing and vending dependencies, does not run its own npm proxy with cherry-picked packages.

xtian 5y ago
The fact that there’s no mention of the `npm ci` command (or yarn or pnpm) makes me wonder how deeply this problem was investigated before using it as a justification for this hacky workaround. One wonders why they aren’t checking in the binaries for their database and language runtimes. Surely this would save crucial seconds in project setup.
- cxr 5y ago
  There's a tremendous irony here, which is that these package managers are little more than a hack to let people manage parts of their project tree (and the accompanying shame) outside the harsh and knowing gaze of their version control system.
  - xtian 5y ago
    So I imagine that if you ship an app on Linux you check in the source of every system library and utility it depends on, right? Anything less is little more than a hack to escape the harsh and knowing gaze of your version control system.
    - cxr 5y ago
      > I imagine that if you ship an app on Linux you check in the source of every system library and utility it depends on, right? Dumb false equivalence, since that ("every system library and utility it depends on") is not the argument of the side you're trying to appear to offer a response to. Please refer to the HN guidelines. A less dishonest retort would be to ask if one should check in the dependencies that are analogous to what ends up in node_modules, and the response would be, "welp, that's exactly how many app developers have been known to approach things, so 'yes'."
      - xtian 5y ago
        Despite the sanctimony, I'm sure there's at least a slim chance of you understanding my point: the distinction between "what ends up in node_modules" and any other application dependency is arbitrary and purely conventional. There are legitimate technical reasons to check dependencies into source control, but neither the reasons cited in the article nor any pompous ascriptions of moral judgment to software tools are among them.
        cxr 5y ago
        As a point of fact, the sanctimony of referring to something as a "hacky workaround" began here, where _you_ were the one to (unironically) introduce the phrase: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528285 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528285> Pointing out the logical inconsistency of a strong claim is not provocation, no matter how much you feel like you are the one who is being attacked. I don't recognize your claim that the distinction is arbitrary. Is the NPM world's distinction between package.json's "dependencies" vs "devDependencies" arbitrary? (Answer: no.)
raverbashing 5y ago
Here's a better idea, can't you have an npm cache/clone that keeps all the artifacts you use in your code? So you pull from it, it pulls from npm and caches?
- fivea 5y ago
  > Here's a better idea, can't you have an npm cache/clone that keeps all the artifacts you use in your code? So you pull from it, it pulls from npm and caches? Not only is that possible, that's also expected to be mandatory in any company that is required to monitor ad control dependencies. I know for a fact that some FANGs do manage and enforce the use of internal npm repositories, mainly because of infosec audits, and I doubt Google is not one of them.

by fivea 5y ago

xtian 5y ago

The fact that there’s no mention of the `npm ci` command (or yarn or pnpm) makes me wonder how deeply this problem was investigated before using it as a justification for this hacky workaround. One wonders why they aren’t checking in the binaries for their database and language runtimes. Surely this would save crucial seconds in project setup.

cxr 5y ago
There's a tremendous irony here, which is that these package managers are little more than a hack to let people manage parts of their project tree (and the accompanying shame) outside the harsh and knowing gaze of their version control system.
- xtian 5y ago
  So I imagine that if you ship an app on Linux you check in the source of every system library and utility it depends on, right? Anything less is little more than a hack to escape the harsh and knowing gaze of your version control system.
  - cxr 5y ago
    > I imagine that if you ship an app on Linux you check in the source of every system library and utility it depends on, right? Dumb false equivalence, since that ("every system library and utility it depends on") is not the argument of the side you're trying to appear to offer a response to. Please refer to the HN guidelines. A less dishonest retort would be to ask if one should check in the dependencies that are analogous to what ends up in node_modules, and the response would be, "welp, that's exactly how many app developers have been known to approach things, so 'yes'."
    - xtian 5y ago
      Despite the sanctimony, I'm sure there's at least a slim chance of you understanding my point: the distinction between "what ends up in node_modules" and any other application dependency is arbitrary and purely conventional. There are legitimate technical reasons to check dependencies into source control, but neither the reasons cited in the article nor any pompous ascriptions of moral judgment to software tools are among them.
      - cxr 5y ago
        As a point of fact, the sanctimony of referring to something as a "hacky workaround" began here, where _you_ were the one to (unironically) introduce the phrase: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528285 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528285> Pointing out the logical inconsistency of a strong claim is not provocation, no matter how much you feel like you are the one who is being attacked. I don't recognize your claim that the distinction is arbitrary. Is the NPM world's distinction between package.json's "dependencies" vs "devDependencies" arbitrary? (Answer: no.)

raverbashing 5y ago

Here's a better idea, can't you have an npm cache/clone that keeps all the artifacts you use in your code? So you pull from it, it pulls from npm and caches?

fivea 5y ago
> Here's a better idea, can't you have an npm cache/clone that keeps all the artifacts you use in your code? So you pull from it, it pulls from npm and caches? Not only is that possible, that's also expected to be mandatory in any company that is required to monitor ad control dependencies. I know for a fact that some FANGs do manage and enforce the use of internal npm repositories, mainly because of infosec audits, and I doubt Google is not one of them.