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Cantonese is not a dialect of Mandarin, rather it is a dialect of Chinese. The fact is that Cantonese is close to classical written Chinese than northern dialec

Cantonese is not a dialect of Mandarin, rather it is a dialect of Chinese. The fact is that Cantonese is close to classical written Chinese than northern dialects. The writing system was unified thousands years go, but not the spoken language. A classic text written by a Cantonese a thousand years ago could be understandable by someone in Beijing that time. Mandarin was created afterwards and was mainly based on northern dialects. The difference is that traditional written language was very formal, and far from spoken language. Now whatever written online are very close to spoken language. I wouldn't understand many words the kids in my city use.

xwolfi 5y ago
Then would you say French and Italian are dialects of Latin - clearly derived bastardized version for a Latin person at the time, same writing ? Or would you say French and Italian are dialect of "Westernese", the same imaginary concept as "Chinese" would be as a language ? I don't really know what's the right boundary between dialect and language. I know I use it in a French context when I want to speak of the peasant's language in my region which has no literature, doesn't expand beyond the villages in Normandy, cannot be written and has a grammar that can fluctuate between villages. Then I call that a dialect because I would discourage someone from using it too much lol What's your definition ? Should we say French is a dialect of Latin if Canto is a dialect of "Chinese" ? And what value would it have, since the Latin world is as divided as the "Chinese" one, politically or linguistically ? Interestingly, I think French people are a bit more "proud" or happy about the Latin link than Hong Kong people are about the Chinese link. At least, each time we discuss the subject, they get mad fast about how their language (and broader "culture" whatever they think that means) is being a little bit dismissed by the mainland to the profit of a more efficient lingua franca they feel loses some features they like (the butchered simplified writing is to them an anathema). I think they overestimate the value of keeping a culture/language and underestimate the benefit of unity but... touchy subject to say the least :D
- jhvkjhk 5y ago
  > I think French people are a bit more "proud" or happy about the Latin link than Hong Kong people are about the Chinese link A little bit off-topic, but I'm curious: do HK people proud or happy about their UK link?
  - xwolfi 5y ago
    Well it changed the last 7 years. When I arrived, they didnt care and I was surprised they vehemently told me "we're Chinese through and through we just dont like the communists", fast forward 7 years, I m married to a local etc, she's religiously renewing her British National Overseas passport, like most people who are eligible, talk now of the "mainlanders" as the problem more than the communists, and 2 years ago the British flag was flying higher than the red flag... As a french it annoys me you can imagine so Im not neutral on the subject, but I d say this Britsh link expanded. China managed to make the HK people regress by their mismanagement of the Taiwan murder issue (which turned into insane anti extraditions protests - how the hell did they screw up that much) and I lost many friends and colleagues to the anglosphere (many moved to Canada and US, some UK but life isnt as good there). I hear them say it was better with the UK, forgetting a bit their grandma sleeping on the streets of Sham Shui Po during the worst of the colonial era... but it was probably also the communists' fault if so many left Canton at that time. Could also be me integrating deeper and seeing the issue as it always was, so take my comment with a grain of salt :D Oh and linguistically, they're surprisingly less fluent than Singapore weirdly, and there are large pockets of HK where it's impossible to use English (usually poorer parts or more mainland populated) so it's very much a political link, not a love or influence of English as a language itself, unlike Latin in France where random grassroot people would fight against grammar reform to keep the Latin influence even if it's irrational, confusing or hard to write.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  "Dialect" normally requires substantial mutual intelligibility. In English we have a Scots dialect with many unique words (many fallen out of common English, but preserved in Scots), that could become a distinct language with a little encouragement and time, but probably won't. American and British English are mutually intelligible dialects with variant pronunciation and small variations in spelling and vocabulary. English and Dutch sound similar, but have little vocabulary in common. Romanian and Portuguese, likewise. Romanian went through a recent scrubbing make it more like Latin. The Romance languages all started out as local dialects of Latin. After casting loose they have evolved mostly independently, and lost inter-intelligibility. But idioms often cross over, with constituent words substituted literally.

xwolfi 5y ago

Then would you say French and Italian are dialects of Latin - clearly derived bastardized version for a Latin person at the time, same writing ? Or would you say French and Italian are dialect of "Westernese", the same imaginary concept as "Chinese" would be as a language ? I don't really know what's the right boundary between dialect and language. I know I use it in a French context when I want to speak of the peasant's language in my region which has no literature, doesn't expand beyond the villages in Normandy, cannot be written and has a grammar that can fluctuate between villages. Then I call that a dialect because I would discourage someone from using it too much lol What's your definition ? Should we say French is a dialect of Latin if Canto is a dialect of "Chinese" ? And what value would it have, since the Latin world is as divided as the "Chinese" one, politically or linguistically ? Interestingly, I think French people are a bit more "proud" or happy about the Latin link than Hong Kong people are about the Chinese link. At least, each time we discuss the subject, they get mad fast about how their language (and broader "culture" whatever they think that means) is being a little bit dismissed by the mainland to the profit of a more efficient lingua franca they feel loses some features they like (the butchered simplified writing is to them an anathema). I think they overestimate the value of keeping a culture/language and underestimate the benefit of unity but... touchy subject to say the least :D

jhvkjhk 5y ago
> I think French people are a bit more "proud" or happy about the Latin link than Hong Kong people are about the Chinese link A little bit off-topic, but I'm curious: do HK people proud or happy about their UK link?
- xwolfi 5y ago
  Well it changed the last 7 years. When I arrived, they didnt care and I was surprised they vehemently told me "we're Chinese through and through we just dont like the communists", fast forward 7 years, I m married to a local etc, she's religiously renewing her British National Overseas passport, like most people who are eligible, talk now of the "mainlanders" as the problem more than the communists, and 2 years ago the British flag was flying higher than the red flag... As a french it annoys me you can imagine so Im not neutral on the subject, but I d say this Britsh link expanded. China managed to make the HK people regress by their mismanagement of the Taiwan murder issue (which turned into insane anti extraditions protests - how the hell did they screw up that much) and I lost many friends and colleagues to the anglosphere (many moved to Canada and US, some UK but life isnt as good there). I hear them say it was better with the UK, forgetting a bit their grandma sleeping on the streets of Sham Shui Po during the worst of the colonial era... but it was probably also the communists' fault if so many left Canton at that time. Could also be me integrating deeper and seeing the issue as it always was, so take my comment with a grain of salt :D Oh and linguistically, they're surprisingly less fluent than Singapore weirdly, and there are large pockets of HK where it's impossible to use English (usually poorer parts or more mainland populated) so it's very much a political link, not a love or influence of English as a language itself, unlike Latin in France where random grassroot people would fight against grammar reform to keep the Latin influence even if it's irrational, confusing or hard to write.
ncmncm 5y ago
"Dialect" normally requires substantial mutual intelligibility. In English we have a Scots dialect with many unique words (many fallen out of common English, but preserved in Scots), that could become a distinct language with a little encouragement and time, but probably won't. American and British English are mutually intelligible dialects with variant pronunciation and small variations in spelling and vocabulary. English and Dutch sound similar, but have little vocabulary in common. Romanian and Portuguese, likewise. Romanian went through a recent scrubbing make it more like Latin. The Romance languages all started out as local dialects of Latin. After casting loose they have evolved mostly independently, and lost inter-intelligibility. But idioms often cross over, with constituent words substituted literally.