5 ms·

I agree. Lately it seems that people who lay their ideas out and accept criticism are being destroyed by those who refuse to admit fault a priori

by hsod 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
0des 5y ago
Just a head's up, it appears your account may be shadow banned, most of your comments cannot be seen unless someone vouches for them. To respond to your comment, I think sometimes that the skills of debate are fading from society. Often it is not the subject matter of what is being disputed, but the manner in which it is presented, or the person/ideology espousing it.
- dang 5y ago
  Not shadowbanned—we told them we were banning them and why: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16118062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16118062 - as we usually do, when an account has some history on HN. Please don't take threads off topic like that. If you think an account shouldn't be banned, you're welcome to let us know at hn@ycombinator.com. Edit: you've been doing this repeatedly. That's not cool. Please don't do it again. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528043 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528043
  - hsod 5y ago
    Hey Dan Pretty surprising and sad that you would ban me for a comment like that. Reading it back three years later I’m not wildly proud about it but I don’t think it’s ban worthy. But I want to push back against the idea that this is not a shadow ban. I see now that you replied to my comment to let me know. But there’s no notification mechanism on HN for comment replies! So I didn’t see it until just now. A ban mechanism that eventuates in the banned user logging on and participating for 3 years before realizing no one can see their comments is a shadow ban! If you wanted it to be clear there should be some messaging besides a comment reply. Just my two cents
    - dang 5y ago
      First of all, I looked at your recent account history and it seems fine, so I've unbanned you. I'm sorry you stayed banned for such a long time, even while posting comments that were within the site guidelines (well, mostly within the site guidelines). We always unban such accounts when we see them, but we don't always see them. Sometimes users email hn@ycombinator.com to let us know about a username in this category, and we always look and are happy to unban if the account no longer shows signs of posting abusively. > Pretty surprising and sad that you would ban me for a comment like that. Reading it back three years later I’m not wildly proud about it but I don’t think it’s ban worthy. It's clear from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16118062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16118062 that I didn't ban you for just one comment. It says: "We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the HN guidelines with uncivil personal attacks and by using the site primarily for ideological battle. Those things are not allowed here, regardless of your politics, how right you are, or how right you feel you are." That's obviously about an overall pattern of behavior, no? > A ban mechanism that eventuates in the banned user logging on and participating for 3 years before realizing no one can see their comments is a shadow ban! If you wanted it to be clear there should be some messaging besides a comment reply. Definitional arguments aside, yes—you're making a fair point. It's on our list to fix this, perhaps with a probation system that tells people they're banned for a time period (at least at first) and then unbans them. Most people respond well to feedback, so it's possible this will help in other ways too. However, don't underestimate how much damage is caused by accounts that wilfully abuse the site and take advantage of such systems—it's hard to design something that's both fair to the majority and not so vulnerable to abuse.
  - 0des 5y ago
    This is a disturbing step in the wrong direction. If I were doing it in an automated fashion, or going on a diatribe about it, I'd meet you halfway on it and say you have a point, but this feels uncharacteristically like "we will moderate who we please and you're not allowed to notice or comment on it, and don't push the issue, or else." If the vouch system shouldn't be used to rescue otherwise worthy on-topic comments, what is it there for, and why not ban the user entirely? Before you 86 me over it, consider if you're in the right here, and what types of chilling effects your statement above has. Nobody claims that this place is the paragon of fairness, but this community works hard to keep it fair and balanced without this type of clandestine moderation. What you just attempted is morally wrong. If that gets me banned for daring to disagree, then you're doing me a favor by adding me to the list. Even someone who's ideologically motivated like the guy I replied to can be right at times, whether I agree with them personally the rest of the time or not, so I'd implore you to reconsider the readiness with which you bear down on those who are doing the moderation for you by surfacing the comments where the shunned, for once, aren't pursuing their own agendas. Isn't that the purpose of the vouch system? Deflated.
    - dang 5y ago
      It's not a step in any direction—it's how HN has always worked. Of course the vouch system should be used to rescue worthy on-topic comments. That's its purpose. I wasn't talking about that, but rather about your repeatedly posting like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528043 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528043 There are two problems with doing that: (1) it's repetitive, which is not what HN discussion is for; and (2) it's basically doing an end run around moderation.
beebeepka 5y ago
Lately? I don't think so. Strong men never make mistakes. Never. Only weak men do. You know it's true. You've seen it. Cavemen have seen it. Probably true in some animal societies, too

I agree. Lately it seems that people who lay their ideas out and accept criticism are being destroyed by those who refuse to admit fault a priori

by hsod 5y ago

I agree. Lately it seems that people who lay their ideas out and accept criticism are being destroyed by those who refuse to admit fault a priori

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

0des 5y ago

Just a head's up, it appears your account may be shadow banned, most of your comments cannot be seen unless someone vouches for them. To respond to your comment, I think sometimes that the skills of debate are fading from society. Often it is not the subject matter of what is being disputed, but the manner in which it is presented, or the person/ideology espousing it.

dang 5y ago
Not shadowbanned—we told them we were banning them and why: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16118062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16118062 - as we usually do, when an account has some history on HN. Please don't take threads off topic like that. If you think an account shouldn't be banned, you're welcome to let us know at hn@ycombinator.com. Edit: you've been doing this repeatedly. That's not cool. Please don't do it again. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528043 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528043
- hsod 5y ago
  Hey Dan Pretty surprising and sad that you would ban me for a comment like that. Reading it back three years later I’m not wildly proud about it but I don’t think it’s ban worthy. But I want to push back against the idea that this is not a shadow ban. I see now that you replied to my comment to let me know. But there’s no notification mechanism on HN for comment replies! So I didn’t see it until just now. A ban mechanism that eventuates in the banned user logging on and participating for 3 years before realizing no one can see their comments is a shadow ban! If you wanted it to be clear there should be some messaging besides a comment reply. Just my two cents
  - dang 5y ago
    First of all, I looked at your recent account history and it seems fine, so I've unbanned you. I'm sorry you stayed banned for such a long time, even while posting comments that were within the site guidelines (well, mostly within the site guidelines). We always unban such accounts when we see them, but we don't always see them. Sometimes users email hn@ycombinator.com to let us know about a username in this category, and we always look and are happy to unban if the account no longer shows signs of posting abusively. > Pretty surprising and sad that you would ban me for a comment like that. Reading it back three years later I’m not wildly proud about it but I don’t think it’s ban worthy. It's clear from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16118062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16118062 that I didn't ban you for just one comment. It says: "We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the HN guidelines with uncivil personal attacks and by using the site primarily for ideological battle. Those things are not allowed here, regardless of your politics, how right you are, or how right you feel you are." That's obviously about an overall pattern of behavior, no? > A ban mechanism that eventuates in the banned user logging on and participating for 3 years before realizing no one can see their comments is a shadow ban! If you wanted it to be clear there should be some messaging besides a comment reply. Definitional arguments aside, yes—you're making a fair point. It's on our list to fix this, perhaps with a probation system that tells people they're banned for a time period (at least at first) and then unbans them. Most people respond well to feedback, so it's possible this will help in other ways too. However, don't underestimate how much damage is caused by accounts that wilfully abuse the site and take advantage of such systems—it's hard to design something that's both fair to the majority and not so vulnerable to abuse.
- 0des 5y ago
  This is a disturbing step in the wrong direction. If I were doing it in an automated fashion, or going on a diatribe about it, I'd meet you halfway on it and say you have a point, but this feels uncharacteristically like "we will moderate who we please and you're not allowed to notice or comment on it, and don't push the issue, or else." If the vouch system shouldn't be used to rescue otherwise worthy on-topic comments, what is it there for, and why not ban the user entirely? Before you 86 me over it, consider if you're in the right here, and what types of chilling effects your statement above has. Nobody claims that this place is the paragon of fairness, but this community works hard to keep it fair and balanced without this type of clandestine moderation. What you just attempted is morally wrong. If that gets me banned for daring to disagree, then you're doing me a favor by adding me to the list. Even someone who's ideologically motivated like the guy I replied to can be right at times, whether I agree with them personally the rest of the time or not, so I'd implore you to reconsider the readiness with which you bear down on those who are doing the moderation for you by surfacing the comments where the shunned, for once, aren't pursuing their own agendas. Isn't that the purpose of the vouch system? Deflated.
  - dang 5y ago
    It's not a step in any direction—it's how HN has always worked. Of course the vouch system should be used to rescue worthy on-topic comments. That's its purpose. I wasn't talking about that, but rather about your repeatedly posting like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528043 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29528043 There are two problems with doing that: (1) it's repetitive, which is not what HN discussion is for; and (2) it's basically doing an end run around moderation.

beebeepka 5y ago

Lately? I don't think so. Strong men never make mistakes. Never. Only weak men do. You know it's true. You've seen it. Cavemen have seen it. Probably true in some animal societies, too