4 ms·

I'm in Hong Kong (majority Cantonese), my wife cant for her life help me navigate taobao in Mandarin, even when she transcribes the simplified into traditional

by xwolfi 5y ago

I'm in Hong Kong (majority Cantonese), my wife cant for her life help me navigate taobao in Mandarin, even when she transcribes the simplified into traditional without getting annoyed and frustrated. So while it's not totally unintelligle to her, because it's sort of similar, I think for her to read mandarin is like for me, French, to read Spanish. I can grasp it, it's sort of the same thing, but there are so many little details in divergence it takes me ages just to get a grasp of what it's saying. I wouldnt dare call Spanish or French a dialect of Italian and I think it's weird to call Cantonese a dialect of Mandarin just like saying humans descendend from modern monkeys: these things are trees with common ancestors but also diverging influences that make them break away further from each other. I think americans exagerate the oppressive nature of language teaching in China since the guy you replied to has a point: they experience it and they very well must see it's not 1:1 sound transcription.

frenchy 5y ago
There's a saying that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. What people choose to call the communications of a specific language community is often a very political thing.
causi 5y ago
Just the fact Mandarin has four tones and Cantonese has between six and nine depending on the location is enough for me to fall on the "separate languages" side of the opinion.
powerapple 5y ago
Cantonese is not a dialect of Mandarin, rather it is a dialect of Chinese. The fact is that Cantonese is close to classical written Chinese than northern dialects. The writing system was unified thousands years go, but not the spoken language. A classic text written by a Cantonese a thousand years ago could be understandable by someone in Beijing that time. Mandarin was created afterwards and was mainly based on northern dialects. The difference is that traditional written language was very formal, and far from spoken language. Now whatever written online are very close to spoken language. I wouldn't understand many words the kids in my city use.
- xwolfi 5y ago
  Then would you say French and Italian are dialects of Latin - clearly derived bastardized version for a Latin person at the time, same writing ? Or would you say French and Italian are dialect of "Westernese", the same imaginary concept as "Chinese" would be as a language ? I don't really know what's the right boundary between dialect and language. I know I use it in a French context when I want to speak of the peasant's language in my region which has no literature, doesn't expand beyond the villages in Normandy, cannot be written and has a grammar that can fluctuate between villages. Then I call that a dialect because I would discourage someone from using it too much lol What's your definition ? Should we say French is a dialect of Latin if Canto is a dialect of "Chinese" ? And what value would it have, since the Latin world is as divided as the "Chinese" one, politically or linguistically ? Interestingly, I think French people are a bit more "proud" or happy about the Latin link than Hong Kong people are about the Chinese link. At least, each time we discuss the subject, they get mad fast about how their language (and broader "culture" whatever they think that means) is being a little bit dismissed by the mainland to the profit of a more efficient lingua franca they feel loses some features they like (the butchered simplified writing is to them an anathema). I think they overestimate the value of keeping a culture/language and underestimate the benefit of unity but... touchy subject to say the least :D
  - jhvkjhk 5y ago
    > I think French people are a bit more "proud" or happy about the Latin link than Hong Kong people are about the Chinese link A little bit off-topic, but I'm curious: do HK people proud or happy about their UK link?
    - xwolfi 5y ago
      Well it changed the last 7 years. When I arrived, they didnt care and I was surprised they vehemently told me "we're Chinese through and through we just dont like the communists", fast forward 7 years, I m married to a local etc, she's religiously renewing her British National Overseas passport, like most people who are eligible, talk now of the "mainlanders" as the problem more than the communists, and 2 years ago the British flag was flying higher than the red flag... As a french it annoys me you can imagine so Im not neutral on the subject, but I d say this Britsh link expanded. China managed to make the HK people regress by their mismanagement of the Taiwan murder issue (which turned into insane anti extraditions protests - how the hell did they screw up that much) and I lost many friends and colleagues to the anglosphere (many moved to Canada and US, some UK but life isnt as good there). I hear them say it was better with the UK, forgetting a bit their grandma sleeping on the streets of Sham Shui Po during the worst of the colonial era... but it was probably also the communists' fault if so many left Canton at that time. Could also be me integrating deeper and seeing the issue as it always was, so take my comment with a grain of salt :D Oh and linguistically, they're surprisingly less fluent than Singapore weirdly, and there are large pockets of HK where it's impossible to use English (usually poorer parts or more mainland populated) so it's very much a political link, not a love or influence of English as a language itself, unlike Latin in France where random grassroot people would fight against grammar reform to keep the Latin influence even if it's irrational, confusing or hard to write.

by xwolfi 5y ago

frenchy 5y ago

There's a saying that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. What people choose to call the communications of a specific language community is often a very political thing.

causi 5y ago

Just the fact Mandarin has four tones and Cantonese has between six and nine depending on the location is enough for me to fall on the "separate languages" side of the opinion.

powerapple 5y ago

Cantonese is not a dialect of Mandarin, rather it is a dialect of Chinese. The fact is that Cantonese is close to classical written Chinese than northern dialects. The writing system was unified thousands years go, but not the spoken language. A classic text written by a Cantonese a thousand years ago could be understandable by someone in Beijing that time. Mandarin was created afterwards and was mainly based on northern dialects. The difference is that traditional written language was very formal, and far from spoken language. Now whatever written online are very close to spoken language. I wouldn't understand many words the kids in my city use.

xwolfi 5y ago
Then would you say French and Italian are dialects of Latin - clearly derived bastardized version for a Latin person at the time, same writing ? Or would you say French and Italian are dialect of "Westernese", the same imaginary concept as "Chinese" would be as a language ? I don't really know what's the right boundary between dialect and language. I know I use it in a French context when I want to speak of the peasant's language in my region which has no literature, doesn't expand beyond the villages in Normandy, cannot be written and has a grammar that can fluctuate between villages. Then I call that a dialect because I would discourage someone from using it too much lol What's your definition ? Should we say French is a dialect of Latin if Canto is a dialect of "Chinese" ? And what value would it have, since the Latin world is as divided as the "Chinese" one, politically or linguistically ? Interestingly, I think French people are a bit more "proud" or happy about the Latin link than Hong Kong people are about the Chinese link. At least, each time we discuss the subject, they get mad fast about how their language (and broader "culture" whatever they think that means) is being a little bit dismissed by the mainland to the profit of a more efficient lingua franca they feel loses some features they like (the butchered simplified writing is to them an anathema). I think they overestimate the value of keeping a culture/language and underestimate the benefit of unity but... touchy subject to say the least :D
- jhvkjhk 5y ago
  > I think French people are a bit more "proud" or happy about the Latin link than Hong Kong people are about the Chinese link A little bit off-topic, but I'm curious: do HK people proud or happy about their UK link?
  - xwolfi 5y ago
    Well it changed the last 7 years. When I arrived, they didnt care and I was surprised they vehemently told me "we're Chinese through and through we just dont like the communists", fast forward 7 years, I m married to a local etc, she's religiously renewing her British National Overseas passport, like most people who are eligible, talk now of the "mainlanders" as the problem more than the communists, and 2 years ago the British flag was flying higher than the red flag... As a french it annoys me you can imagine so Im not neutral on the subject, but I d say this Britsh link expanded. China managed to make the HK people regress by their mismanagement of the Taiwan murder issue (which turned into insane anti extraditions protests - how the hell did they screw up that much) and I lost many friends and colleagues to the anglosphere (many moved to Canada and US, some UK but life isnt as good there). I hear them say it was better with the UK, forgetting a bit their grandma sleeping on the streets of Sham Shui Po during the worst of the colonial era... but it was probably also the communists' fault if so many left Canton at that time. Could also be me integrating deeper and seeing the issue as it always was, so take my comment with a grain of salt :D Oh and linguistically, they're surprisingly less fluent than Singapore weirdly, and there are large pockets of HK where it's impossible to use English (usually poorer parts or more mainland populated) so it's very much a political link, not a love or influence of English as a language itself, unlike Latin in France where random grassroot people would fight against grammar reform to keep the Latin influence even if it's irrational, confusing or hard to write.