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"Six Amazon.com Inc (AMZN.O) workers were confirmed dead on Saturday after a series of tornadoes roared through a warehouse near St Louis, ripping off its roof

"Six Amazon.com Inc (AMZN.O) workers were confirmed dead on Saturday after a series of tornadoes roared through a warehouse near St Louis, ripping off its roof and causing 11-inch thick concrete walls longer than football fields to collapse on themselves." Horrific. A wall that size cannot possibly survive a big wind. Cannot.

fosk 5y ago
I wonder why they haven't compartmentalized the wall in such a way that in case of structural failure only individual sections will potentially collapse, not the whole thing.
- blamazon 5y ago
  Look at the photos—the panels that make up the exterior wall are segmented into narrow vertical strips. There’s not much you can do about a direct hit across all the cells.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Compartmentalization doesn't work when the iceberg slices them all open.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  Most likely the cost benefit ratio is too high.
- stohk 5y ago
  This type of warehouse building is extremely pervasive right now. Having worked in an amazon facility and several other 'modern' warehouses, they all share the same design. It's prefabbed concrete sections held in place by steel support columns. Steel truss structure holding roof with steel I-beams providing support to roof. Any modern warehouse struck by the same inclement weather will suffer the same exact fate. Will add that the weather affecting this particular facility was extreme by any measure but most facilities that occupy the tornado alley should seriously consider this. My facility had a shelter in place policy in case of inclement weather which basically means, everyone(800-1k people?) huddle into 4, 6 person bathrooms. Amazon Leased the building I worked in, so kind of removes them from blame of structural failure, but maybe not he decision to occupy the building during known severe weather.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    I can't even imagine what it would take to design a warehouse-size building to withstand 200-300 mph winds. Not just expensive, but the engineering required would be pretty significant. By comparison, I think it is probably fairly straightforward to make office buildings that can stay reasonably intact even with a direct hit. Much more structure to work with.
baybal2 5y ago
> Horrific. > A wall that size cannot possibly survive a big wind. > Cannot. A reinforced concrete should've been easily capable of withstanding a hurricane. First thing I see is that roof was not attached to anything reinforcing in the wall, or columns. It seems it solely relied on its weight, which was easily overwhelmed by wind, to keep it in place.
- Kye 5y ago
  Damage scales exponentially with wind speed. Hurricanes max out around ~180MPH. That's the speed of a feisty F3 tornado. You can be "hit" by a hurricane and be fine unless it's the eye or you get some debris in higher winds further out. Any hit from a tornado brings the full force of a thin column of debris whirling at that speed.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > A reinforced concrete should've been easily capable of withstanding a hurricane. Hurricanes are kinda wimpy, though. Their main claim to fame is sustained winds. A tornado can pack winds pushing 300 mph. Good luck building a warehouse that can take a direct hit from that.
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    plus it’s not always the wind that does the damage, it’s what the wind picks up and throws at you
    - erik_seaberg 5y ago
      “It’s not that the wind is blowing, it’s what the wind is blowing. If you get hit with a Volvo, it doesn’t really matter how many sit-ups you did that morning.” — Ron White
- Turing_Machine 5y ago
  Hurricanes and tornados are two different phenomena, entirely. A Category 5 hurricane generally has wind speeds less than 200 mph. EF5 tornadoes start at 200 mph, and can be well over 300 mph. Could you design a warehouse (note: not a small storm shelter, but a warehouse, which by definition needs to have very large interior open spaces) that would withstand a 300 mph wind? Maybe. The budget would be well beyond the reach of any non-military client, though.
coryrc 5y ago
Point me to a warehouse currently built in the US that would survive this.
- firebones 5y ago
  Not a warehouse, but there are data centers in the tornado belt where the whole building is designed and built that way. https://www.computerworld.com/article/2497174/tornadoes-and-data-centers-are-ok-in-oklahoma.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2497174/tornadoes-and-...
- baybal2 5y ago
  I am not sure about US warehouses, but somewhere else it will surely will. Any seismic regulation would've probably completely blasted a building where roof is not held in place in tension. In general, remains seem to lack any continuous reinforcement in between panels. Only flimsy fasteners held them together. USA is a land of contradictions, and its building codes are no exception. They write 100 pages sections of building codes regarding fire resistance, down to mandating which kinds of doorknobs can be installed, and then allow people building stuff from plywood. Same for building in hurricane/tornado areas. It's absolutely nobrainer how to build buildings capable of withstanding any imaginable hurricane. But instead of just banning anything not built from reinforced concrete, or steel, they keep trying to "rationalise" building methods which would still have zero chances surviving a tornado, even if laden with every reinforcement imaginable.
  - Aperocky 5y ago
    > zero chances surviving a tornado Most buildings are in this category, and it make sense. This is not where the fault lies. Building something to specifically withstand 200mph wind is NOT reasonable. Hurricanes force wind by comparison starts at 74mph and decays quickly inland.
    - baybal2 5y ago
      > Building something to specifically withstand 200mph wind A properly engineered reinforced concrete building would easily withstand that.
AlbertCory 5y ago
Question: what was the peak wind speed? Is it more than a hurricane's, or less? The next question is: do they have stricter building codes in Florida, such that this storm wouldn't have knocked down warehouses?
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > Question: what was the peak wind speed? Is it more than a hurricane's, or less? For comparison, a cat 5 hurricane is 157 mph or higher. An EF-5 tornado is 200 mph and up. The highest recorded wind speed is about 300 mph.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  > Question: what was the peak wind speed? Is it more than a hurricane's, or less? More, a lot more, to the point where any building code that saves you would just make it not economical to build anything
- Aperocky 5y ago
  More. It's much more likely to be hit by a hurricane in Florida? It's also unpractical to build everything to be able to withstand the off chance there's a tornado. You essentially need bunkers. Better question here is if there are adequate alarm and evacuation plans.
- AlbertCory 5y ago
  Thanks everyone. The hypothesis was "if Midwest buildings were built to Florida standards, the warehouse would have survived." Disproved.
forrestthewoods 5y ago
Looking at the photos it seems like a massive building and the tornado just sliced straight through it. I’m not sure what you can do about that that’s reasonable? A candle factory was completely leveled. Dozens dead. Many still missing. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/kentucky-candle-factory-had-more-than-100-people-inside-when-tornado-hit/ar-AARIISk https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/kentucky-candle-factory-ha...
deleted 5y ago
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fosk 5y ago

I wonder why they haven't compartmentalized the wall in such a way that in case of structural failure only individual sections will potentially collapse, not the whole thing.

blamazon 5y ago
Look at the photos—the panels that make up the exterior wall are segmented into narrow vertical strips. There’s not much you can do about a direct hit across all the cells.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Compartmentalization doesn't work when the iceberg slices them all open.
lotsofpulp 5y ago
Most likely the cost benefit ratio is too high.
stohk 5y ago
This type of warehouse building is extremely pervasive right now. Having worked in an amazon facility and several other 'modern' warehouses, they all share the same design. It's prefabbed concrete sections held in place by steel support columns. Steel truss structure holding roof with steel I-beams providing support to roof. Any modern warehouse struck by the same inclement weather will suffer the same exact fate. Will add that the weather affecting this particular facility was extreme by any measure but most facilities that occupy the tornado alley should seriously consider this. My facility had a shelter in place policy in case of inclement weather which basically means, everyone(800-1k people?) huddle into 4, 6 person bathrooms. Amazon Leased the building I worked in, so kind of removes them from blame of structural failure, but maybe not he decision to occupy the building during known severe weather.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  I can't even imagine what it would take to design a warehouse-size building to withstand 200-300 mph winds. Not just expensive, but the engineering required would be pretty significant. By comparison, I think it is probably fairly straightforward to make office buildings that can stay reasonably intact even with a direct hit. Much more structure to work with.

baybal2 5y ago

> Horrific. > A wall that size cannot possibly survive a big wind. > Cannot. A reinforced concrete should've been easily capable of withstanding a hurricane. First thing I see is that roof was not attached to anything reinforcing in the wall, or columns. It seems it solely relied on its weight, which was easily overwhelmed by wind, to keep it in place.

Kye 5y ago
Damage scales exponentially with wind speed. Hurricanes max out around ~180MPH. That's the speed of a feisty F3 tornado. You can be "hit" by a hurricane and be fine unless it's the eye or you get some debris in higher winds further out. Any hit from a tornado brings the full force of a thin column of debris whirling at that speed.
rootusrootus 5y ago
> A reinforced concrete should've been easily capable of withstanding a hurricane. Hurricanes are kinda wimpy, though. Their main claim to fame is sustained winds. A tornado can pack winds pushing 300 mph. Good luck building a warehouse that can take a direct hit from that.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  plus it’s not always the wind that does the damage, it’s what the wind picks up and throws at you
  - erik_seaberg 5y ago
    “It’s not that the wind is blowing, it’s what the wind is blowing. If you get hit with a Volvo, it doesn’t really matter how many sit-ups you did that morning.” — Ron White
Turing_Machine 5y ago
Hurricanes and tornados are two different phenomena, entirely. A Category 5 hurricane generally has wind speeds less than 200 mph. EF5 tornadoes start at 200 mph, and can be well over 300 mph. Could you design a warehouse (note: not a small storm shelter, but a warehouse, which by definition needs to have very large interior open spaces) that would withstand a 300 mph wind? Maybe. The budget would be well beyond the reach of any non-military client, though.

coryrc 5y ago

Point me to a warehouse currently built in the US that would survive this.

firebones 5y ago
Not a warehouse, but there are data centers in the tornado belt where the whole building is designed and built that way. https://www.computerworld.com/article/2497174/tornadoes-and-data-centers-are-ok-in-oklahoma.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2497174/tornadoes-and-...
baybal2 5y ago
I am not sure about US warehouses, but somewhere else it will surely will. Any seismic regulation would've probably completely blasted a building where roof is not held in place in tension. In general, remains seem to lack any continuous reinforcement in between panels. Only flimsy fasteners held them together. USA is a land of contradictions, and its building codes are no exception. They write 100 pages sections of building codes regarding fire resistance, down to mandating which kinds of doorknobs can be installed, and then allow people building stuff from plywood. Same for building in hurricane/tornado areas. It's absolutely nobrainer how to build buildings capable of withstanding any imaginable hurricane. But instead of just banning anything not built from reinforced concrete, or steel, they keep trying to "rationalise" building methods which would still have zero chances surviving a tornado, even if laden with every reinforcement imaginable.
- Aperocky 5y ago
  > zero chances surviving a tornado Most buildings are in this category, and it make sense. This is not where the fault lies. Building something to specifically withstand 200mph wind is NOT reasonable. Hurricanes force wind by comparison starts at 74mph and decays quickly inland.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    > Building something to specifically withstand 200mph wind A properly engineered reinforced concrete building would easily withstand that.

AlbertCory 5y ago

Question: what was the peak wind speed? Is it more than a hurricane's, or less? The next question is: do they have stricter building codes in Florida, such that this storm wouldn't have knocked down warehouses?

rootusrootus 5y ago
> Question: what was the peak wind speed? Is it more than a hurricane's, or less? For comparison, a cat 5 hurricane is 157 mph or higher. An EF-5 tornado is 200 mph and up. The highest recorded wind speed is about 300 mph.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
> Question: what was the peak wind speed? Is it more than a hurricane's, or less? More, a lot more, to the point where any building code that saves you would just make it not economical to build anything
Aperocky 5y ago
More. It's much more likely to be hit by a hurricane in Florida? It's also unpractical to build everything to be able to withstand the off chance there's a tornado. You essentially need bunkers. Better question here is if there are adequate alarm and evacuation plans.
AlbertCory 5y ago
Thanks everyone. The hypothesis was "if Midwest buildings were built to Florida standards, the warehouse would have survived." Disproved.

forrestthewoods 5y ago

Looking at the photos it seems like a massive building and the tornado just sliced straight through it. I’m not sure what you can do about that that’s reasonable? A candle factory was completely leveled. Dozens dead. Many still missing. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/kentucky-candle-factory-had-more-than-100-people-inside-when-tornado-hit/ar-AARIISk https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/kentucky-candle-factory-ha...

deleted 5y ago

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