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> Most dialects, Cantonese included, use the same Chinese character system. I don’t think GP is arguing about this. The question is about whether they use the

by bradrn 5y ago

> Most dialects, Cantonese included, use the same Chinese character system. I don’t think GP is arguing about this. The question is about whether they use the same sounds, whether they have the same grammar, and whether people from different dialects can understand each other without special training. Even though Cantonese uses the same character set as other dialects, my understanding is that you can’t just transcribe Cantonese word-by-word onto a page without it becoming unintelligible to a speaker of other dialects — all of which implies that the ‘dialects’ are actually separate languages.

xwolfi 5y ago
I'm in Hong Kong (majority Cantonese), my wife cant for her life help me navigate taobao in Mandarin, even when she transcribes the simplified into traditional without getting annoyed and frustrated. So while it's not totally unintelligle to her, because it's sort of similar, I think for her to read mandarin is like for me, French, to read Spanish. I can grasp it, it's sort of the same thing, but there are so many little details in divergence it takes me ages just to get a grasp of what it's saying. I wouldnt dare call Spanish or French a dialect of Italian and I think it's weird to call Cantonese a dialect of Mandarin just like saying humans descendend from modern monkeys: these things are trees with common ancestors but also diverging influences that make them break away further from each other. I think americans exagerate the oppressive nature of language teaching in China since the guy you replied to has a point: they experience it and they very well must see it's not 1:1 sound transcription.
- frenchy 5y ago
  There's a saying that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. What people choose to call the communications of a specific language community is often a very political thing.
- causi 5y ago
  Just the fact Mandarin has four tones and Cantonese has between six and nine depending on the location is enough for me to fall on the "separate languages" side of the opinion.
- powerapple 5y ago
  Cantonese is not a dialect of Mandarin, rather it is a dialect of Chinese. The fact is that Cantonese is close to classical written Chinese than northern dialects. The writing system was unified thousands years go, but not the spoken language. A classic text written by a Cantonese a thousand years ago could be understandable by someone in Beijing that time. Mandarin was created afterwards and was mainly based on northern dialects. The difference is that traditional written language was very formal, and far from spoken language. Now whatever written online are very close to spoken language. I wouldn't understand many words the kids in my city use.
  - xwolfi 5y ago
    Then would you say French and Italian are dialects of Latin - clearly derived bastardized version for a Latin person at the time, same writing ? Or would you say French and Italian are dialect of "Westernese", the same imaginary concept as "Chinese" would be as a language ? I don't really know what's the right boundary between dialect and language. I know I use it in a French context when I want to speak of the peasant's language in my region which has no literature, doesn't expand beyond the villages in Normandy, cannot be written and has a grammar that can fluctuate between villages. Then I call that a dialect because I would discourage someone from using it too much lol What's your definition ? Should we say French is a dialect of Latin if Canto is a dialect of "Chinese" ? And what value would it have, since the Latin world is as divided as the "Chinese" one, politically or linguistically ? Interestingly, I think French people are a bit more "proud" or happy about the Latin link than Hong Kong people are about the Chinese link. At least, each time we discuss the subject, they get mad fast about how their language (and broader "culture" whatever they think that means) is being a little bit dismissed by the mainland to the profit of a more efficient lingua franca they feel loses some features they like (the butchered simplified writing is to them an anathema). I think they overestimate the value of keeping a culture/language and underestimate the benefit of unity but... touchy subject to say the least :D
    - jhvkjhk 5y ago
      > I think French people are a bit more "proud" or happy about the Latin link than Hong Kong people are about the Chinese link A little bit off-topic, but I'm curious: do HK people proud or happy about their UK link?
z2 5y ago
As a mandarin speaker (not from northern China though), I feel that the OP's anecdotes seem a bit extreme and appeared to imply ignorance in most speakers. Anecdotally I know none to few people who would claim that dialects can be written and then read back in another dialect. It also would strike me and all the mandarin speakers I know as fairly obvious that most dialects don't even have well-defined characters to use. Rather, written Cantonese (or Shanghainese etc.) often use characters for phonetic purposes rather than true etymological meaning (e.g., 海-sea is pronounced "hai" in many dialects, and 嗨 with a 口-mouth character hints that this is now a sound word to represent the "hai" sound, and no longer has any relation to the ocean). And that is if the dialect mainstream enough to actually have a writing convention. A lack of popular non-mandarin convention today is tough, hence the dominance of written mandarin grammar, to the extent that a lot of Cantonese news programs will actually provide captions in written mandarin.
- jimworm 5y ago
  > Rather, written Cantonese (or Shanghainese etc.) often use characters for phonetic purposes rather than true etymological meaning This is where the mistake is. Written Chinese does have all those characters - it is the adoption of a "standard Chinese" that caused those characters not to be taught when mass education was introduced. The people were left to transliterate or create new characters for their spoken native tongue, and the correct characters are now known only to researchers. One very annoying part of Mandarin's effect on modern Chinese is that many words are being replaced by transliterations of/in Mandarin, even when the Chinese word itself exists. Often this is because the source of the word was foreign. To a non-Mandarin speaker, written Chinese is very slowly turning into complete nonsense, and written Chinese is losing its edge in longevity by no longer being a ideograph-based language.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    It has been a very, very long time since written Chinese was a substantially ideograph-based language. It is amazing how many literate Chinese people think of it as one.
    - 5y ago

by bradrn 5y ago

xwolfi 5y ago

I'm in Hong Kong (majority Cantonese), my wife cant for her life help me navigate taobao in Mandarin, even when she transcribes the simplified into traditional without getting annoyed and frustrated. So while it's not totally unintelligle to her, because it's sort of similar, I think for her to read mandarin is like for me, French, to read Spanish. I can grasp it, it's sort of the same thing, but there are so many little details in divergence it takes me ages just to get a grasp of what it's saying. I wouldnt dare call Spanish or French a dialect of Italian and I think it's weird to call Cantonese a dialect of Mandarin just like saying humans descendend from modern monkeys: these things are trees with common ancestors but also diverging influences that make them break away further from each other. I think americans exagerate the oppressive nature of language teaching in China since the guy you replied to has a point: they experience it and they very well must see it's not 1:1 sound transcription.

frenchy 5y ago
There's a saying that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. What people choose to call the communications of a specific language community is often a very political thing.
causi 5y ago
Just the fact Mandarin has four tones and Cantonese has between six and nine depending on the location is enough for me to fall on the "separate languages" side of the opinion.
powerapple 5y ago
Cantonese is not a dialect of Mandarin, rather it is a dialect of Chinese. The fact is that Cantonese is close to classical written Chinese than northern dialects. The writing system was unified thousands years go, but not the spoken language. A classic text written by a Cantonese a thousand years ago could be understandable by someone in Beijing that time. Mandarin was created afterwards and was mainly based on northern dialects. The difference is that traditional written language was very formal, and far from spoken language. Now whatever written online are very close to spoken language. I wouldn't understand many words the kids in my city use.
- xwolfi 5y ago
  Then would you say French and Italian are dialects of Latin - clearly derived bastardized version for a Latin person at the time, same writing ? Or would you say French and Italian are dialect of "Westernese", the same imaginary concept as "Chinese" would be as a language ? I don't really know what's the right boundary between dialect and language. I know I use it in a French context when I want to speak of the peasant's language in my region which has no literature, doesn't expand beyond the villages in Normandy, cannot be written and has a grammar that can fluctuate between villages. Then I call that a dialect because I would discourage someone from using it too much lol What's your definition ? Should we say French is a dialect of Latin if Canto is a dialect of "Chinese" ? And what value would it have, since the Latin world is as divided as the "Chinese" one, politically or linguistically ? Interestingly, I think French people are a bit more "proud" or happy about the Latin link than Hong Kong people are about the Chinese link. At least, each time we discuss the subject, they get mad fast about how their language (and broader "culture" whatever they think that means) is being a little bit dismissed by the mainland to the profit of a more efficient lingua franca they feel loses some features they like (the butchered simplified writing is to them an anathema). I think they overestimate the value of keeping a culture/language and underestimate the benefit of unity but... touchy subject to say the least :D
  - jhvkjhk 5y ago
    > I think French people are a bit more "proud" or happy about the Latin link than Hong Kong people are about the Chinese link A little bit off-topic, but I'm curious: do HK people proud or happy about their UK link?

z2 5y ago

As a mandarin speaker (not from northern China though), I feel that the OP's anecdotes seem a bit extreme and appeared to imply ignorance in most speakers. Anecdotally I know none to few people who would claim that dialects can be written and then read back in another dialect. It also would strike me and all the mandarin speakers I know as fairly obvious that most dialects don't even have well-defined characters to use. Rather, written Cantonese (or Shanghainese etc.) often use characters for phonetic purposes rather than true etymological meaning (e.g., 海-sea is pronounced "hai" in many dialects, and 嗨 with a 口-mouth character hints that this is now a sound word to represent the "hai" sound, and no longer has any relation to the ocean). And that is if the dialect mainstream enough to actually have a writing convention. A lack of popular non-mandarin convention today is tough, hence the dominance of written mandarin grammar, to the extent that a lot of Cantonese news programs will actually provide captions in written mandarin.

jimworm 5y ago
> Rather, written Cantonese (or Shanghainese etc.) often use characters for phonetic purposes rather than true etymological meaning This is where the mistake is. Written Chinese does have all those characters - it is the adoption of a "standard Chinese" that caused those characters not to be taught when mass education was introduced. The people were left to transliterate or create new characters for their spoken native tongue, and the correct characters are now known only to researchers. One very annoying part of Mandarin's effect on modern Chinese is that many words are being replaced by transliterations of/in Mandarin, even when the Chinese word itself exists. Often this is because the source of the word was foreign. To a non-Mandarin speaker, written Chinese is very slowly turning into complete nonsense, and written Chinese is losing its edge in longevity by no longer being a ideograph-based language.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  It has been a very, very long time since written Chinese was a substantially ideograph-based language. It is amazing how many literate Chinese people think of it as one.
  - 5y ago