9 ms·

In fact Cantonese preserves the tones (esp. 平仄) of ancient Chinese better than Mandarin, and this shows for example when reading Chinese poems [1]. Cantonese e

by hker 5y ago

In fact Cantonese preserves the tones (esp. 平仄) of ancient Chinese better than Mandarin, and this shows for example when reading Chinese poems [1]. Cantonese even almost became the official language of China [2]. [1]: https://www.quora.com/Do-most-ancient-Chinese-poems-rhyme-in-Cantonese-but-not-in-Mandarin https://www.quora.com/Do-most-ancient-Chinese-poems-rhyme-in... [2]: https://www.scmp.com/article/694592/cantonese-almost-became-official-language https://www.scmp.com/article/694592/cantonese-almost-became-...

dwohnitmok 5y ago
> Cantonese even almost became the official language of China X almost became the official language of China is an urban myth that just will not die. There were votes on individual sounds and those either swung one way or another depending on votes. There was never any doubt that Mandarin would form the foundation of the spoken standard (as had been the case for > 1000 years at this point) or that its Beijing-variety would play an important (but not absolute) part. The votes were over the particulars of individual sounds and pronunciations of single characters. EDIT: the idea that Cantonese is more faithful to Middle Chinese (itself a weird, amorphous concept) and therefore better for reading ancient poems also is suspect. There are ancient poems that continue to rhyme in modern Mandarin but don't in Cantonese and vice versa. Heck you could make the case that Wu varieties are the most faithful because they preserve the voicing of the Qieyun System (note I don't believe they are the most faithful). All of these varieties have their own innovations, and there is no clear "most conservative" variety (unlike e.g. Icelandic and Norse).
- hker 5y ago
  > Mandarin would form the foundation of the spoken standard (as had been the case for > 1000 years at this point)... The Old Mandarin had its root from Jin (1115-1234) and Yuan (Mongol) dynasties [1], coming from “foreign ethnicity” 外族 (from a Han-centric view point). The history is less than 1000 years, less than the ancient poems (唐詩) that we are discussing. One main reason for Mandarin to be the standard of Chinese is because of the influence of Mongolia (Yuan) and Manchurian (Qing), that is, non-Han ruling dynasties. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Mandarin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Mandarin > the idea that Cantonese is more faithful to Middle Chinese ... and therefore better for reading ancient poems also is suspect. The tones (esp. 平仄) are better preserved in Cantonese than Mandarin, I don’t think this is disputed.
  - dwohnitmok 5y ago
    No Mandarin goes way further back than Old Mandarin (which despite its naming in that Wikipedia article, is far from standardized, I don't know where it's sourced as Yuan, as the Chinese version of the article states it sometimes is defined as being the language of the Northern Song Dynasty and in the literature sometimes even the Tang dynasty). For example this is how the Song philosopher 朱熹, a Fujian native, spoke in public: 若只是自了，便待工夫做得二十分到，終不足以應變。到那時，卻怕人說道不能應變，也牽強去應 (From the 朱子語類·朱子六) That's pretty recognizably Mandarin. Even earlier from the beginning of the Tang Dynasty, we have poems that are recognizably vernacular Mandarin. 我見那漢死，肚裡熱如火。不是惜那漢，恐畏還到我。 (by 王梵志) > The tones (esp. 平仄) are better preserved in Cantonese, I don’t think this is disputed Ah yes I read your reply too quickly and thought you meant all rhyming. Whether the tones as a whole are better preserved is controversial (a lot of Cantonese tones have come from the loss or change in certain sounds of the QYS, so it's hard to say they're "preserved") but 平仄 is definitely way easier in Cantonese than Mandarin.
    - yorwba 5y ago
      Which features in your quotes are clearly Mandarin but not e.g. Wu Chinese?
      - dwohnitmok 5y ago
        The demonstrative 那 and 是 as a copula are the most obvious ones as well as the exclusive use of 不. Individually they are each found in some Wu varieties and other varieties, but that is often a bleed-over from Mandarin. More generally, the following are a small sampling of dominant, geographically independent characteristics of Song written vernacular that make me say that it is clearly Mandarin. 1. The standard pronouns are all the same. We have 我, 你, 他, with the appropriate 們 (often also spelled many different ways just as 門 or later on as we get to the Yuan and Ming dynasty 每). Note that unlike the Tang dynasty 他 and 你 are far and away clearly the dominant, geographically-independent pronouns of the standard vernacular. 2. The near demonstrative is 這 (also spelled 者, 遮, or otherwise) and the far demonstrative is 那. While other demonstratives exist (as is the case even in modern Mandarin) these are far and away the most popular, regardless of region. 3. The order of words is effectively always the same as modern Mandarin. 4. The copula is always 是. 5. The various uses of 個 as an auxiliary word apart from just a 量詞 are generally a superset of modern Mandarin. 6. The interrogative for "where" is 哪 (spelled 那) that is paired in all the same ways as in modern Mandarin (那裏, 那個, etc.). 7. The interrogative for "what" is variations of 什麼/甚麼 (e.g. literally those or 甚底 or other things involving 甚). And so so many other auxiliary words (著, 正, etc.). In fact, if anything, a general rule of thumb for Song vernacular is that modern Mandarin represents a subset of the usages of various function words in the Song vernacular (e.g. 著 has all the uses it does in modern Mandarin in addition to being something more similar to 被 and other things) and modern Mandarin has simply gotten more "strict" (this is of course a simplification).
- ufo 5y ago
  What's the deal with Icelandic and Norse?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - LadyCailin 5y ago
    I assume they’re referring to the fact that Icelandic is the closest modern language to old Norse. Not, contrary to popular belief, Norwegian.
  - dwohnitmok 5y ago
    Icelandic is truly very very conservative. Most Icelandic speakers can understand reconstructed Old Norse, either written or spoken, with only a moderate amount of difficulty.

by hker 5y ago

dwohnitmok 5y ago

> Cantonese even almost became the official language of China X almost became the official language of China is an urban myth that just will not die. There were votes on individual sounds and those either swung one way or another depending on votes. There was never any doubt that Mandarin would form the foundation of the spoken standard (as had been the case for > 1000 years at this point) or that its Beijing-variety would play an important (but not absolute) part. The votes were over the particulars of individual sounds and pronunciations of single characters. EDIT: the idea that Cantonese is more faithful to Middle Chinese (itself a weird, amorphous concept) and therefore better for reading ancient poems also is suspect. There are ancient poems that continue to rhyme in modern Mandarin but don't in Cantonese and vice versa. Heck you could make the case that Wu varieties are the most faithful because they preserve the voicing of the Qieyun System (note I don't believe they are the most faithful). All of these varieties have their own innovations, and there is no clear "most conservative" variety (unlike e.g. Icelandic and Norse).

hker 5y ago
> Mandarin would form the foundation of the spoken standard (as had been the case for > 1000 years at this point)... The Old Mandarin had its root from Jin (1115-1234) and Yuan (Mongol) dynasties [1], coming from “foreign ethnicity” 外族 (from a Han-centric view point). The history is less than 1000 years, less than the ancient poems (唐詩) that we are discussing. One main reason for Mandarin to be the standard of Chinese is because of the influence of Mongolia (Yuan) and Manchurian (Qing), that is, non-Han ruling dynasties. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Mandarin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Mandarin > the idea that Cantonese is more faithful to Middle Chinese ... and therefore better for reading ancient poems also is suspect. The tones (esp. 平仄) are better preserved in Cantonese than Mandarin, I don’t think this is disputed.
- dwohnitmok 5y ago
  No Mandarin goes way further back than Old Mandarin (which despite its naming in that Wikipedia article, is far from standardized, I don't know where it's sourced as Yuan, as the Chinese version of the article states it sometimes is defined as being the language of the Northern Song Dynasty and in the literature sometimes even the Tang dynasty). For example this is how the Song philosopher 朱熹, a Fujian native, spoke in public: 若只是自了，便待工夫做得二十分到，終不足以應變。到那時，卻怕人說道不能應變，也牽強去應 (From the 朱子語類·朱子六) That's pretty recognizably Mandarin. Even earlier from the beginning of the Tang Dynasty, we have poems that are recognizably vernacular Mandarin. 我見那漢死，肚裡熱如火。不是惜那漢，恐畏還到我。 (by 王梵志) > The tones (esp. 平仄) are better preserved in Cantonese, I don’t think this is disputed Ah yes I read your reply too quickly and thought you meant all rhyming. Whether the tones as a whole are better preserved is controversial (a lot of Cantonese tones have come from the loss or change in certain sounds of the QYS, so it's hard to say they're "preserved") but 平仄 is definitely way easier in Cantonese than Mandarin.
  - yorwba 5y ago
    Which features in your quotes are clearly Mandarin but not e.g. Wu Chinese?
    - dwohnitmok 5y ago
      The demonstrative 那 and 是 as a copula are the most obvious ones as well as the exclusive use of 不. Individually they are each found in some Wu varieties and other varieties, but that is often a bleed-over from Mandarin. More generally, the following are a small sampling of dominant, geographically independent characteristics of Song written vernacular that make me say that it is clearly Mandarin. 1. The standard pronouns are all the same. We have 我, 你, 他, with the appropriate 們 (often also spelled many different ways just as 門 or later on as we get to the Yuan and Ming dynasty 每). Note that unlike the Tang dynasty 他 and 你 are far and away clearly the dominant, geographically-independent pronouns of the standard vernacular. 2. The near demonstrative is 這 (also spelled 者, 遮, or otherwise) and the far demonstrative is 那. While other demonstratives exist (as is the case even in modern Mandarin) these are far and away the most popular, regardless of region. 3. The order of words is effectively always the same as modern Mandarin. 4. The copula is always 是. 5. The various uses of 個 as an auxiliary word apart from just a 量詞 are generally a superset of modern Mandarin. 6. The interrogative for "where" is 哪 (spelled 那) that is paired in all the same ways as in modern Mandarin (那裏, 那個, etc.). 7. The interrogative for "what" is variations of 什麼/甚麼 (e.g. literally those or 甚底 or other things involving 甚). And so so many other auxiliary words (著, 正, etc.). In fact, if anything, a general rule of thumb for Song vernacular is that modern Mandarin represents a subset of the usages of various function words in the Song vernacular (e.g. 著 has all the uses it does in modern Mandarin in addition to being something more similar to 被 and other things) and modern Mandarin has simply gotten more "strict" (this is of course a simplification).
ufo 5y ago
What's the deal with Icelandic and Norse?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- LadyCailin 5y ago
  I assume they’re referring to the fact that Icelandic is the closest modern language to old Norse. Not, contrary to popular belief, Norwegian.
- dwohnitmok 5y ago
  Icelandic is truly very very conservative. Most Icelandic speakers can understand reconstructed Old Norse, either written or spoken, with only a moderate amount of difficulty.