4 ms·

A while back I got my motorcycle endorsement on my driver's license which required a class. The instructor taught us "to go left, push left", meaning push on th

by dave78 5y ago

A while back I got my motorcycle endorsement on my driver's license which required a class. The instructor taught us "to go left, push left", meaning push on the left handlebar (another way of saying "turn right", I guess). This idea was completely foreign to me but he insisted we all do it. What I discovered is that I most certainly do NOT turn right to go left. While I could do what he was suggesting (pushing on the left handlebar) and it would achieve the desired effect of transitioning me from a straight line to a right turn, it is not how I ride a bike (bicycle or motorcycle). I spent a long time experimenting with this, and from what I can tell, my natural way of turning is to shift my center of gravity by leaning my upper body. I truly, honestly do not think that I turn right first in order to go left (normally). I can see why people say this works, but I'm convinced this is not how I ride a bike. I think the "turn right to go left" is a way of using the bike to force you to lean. As best I can tell, I just skip that and do the leaning myself.

codingdave 5y ago
Be careful. I used to think the same thing. Until I got onto a bigger bike at higher speeds. My lean didn't cut it, not with that much weight at those speeds. I had some sketchy moments until I did what all the instructors said and pushed the dang handlebar.
function_seven 5y ago
You should take a look at the No BS Bike [0, 1]. It's a motorcycle with a second set of handlebars fixed to the frame. They don't connect to the forks; they don't rotate. Riders are challenged to hold on to these bars and lean the bike as they're underway. At speeds faster than 20mph or so, leaning has a negligible effect on the bike's lean and direction. You can do some very limited steering this way, but the amount of effort you put into it for the meager return quickly convinces riders that handlebar input it the way to control bike direction. When you were shifting your weight, were your arms attached to the handlebars? It's impossible to isolate your shifting of body weight from the related pushing or pulling on the bars if you're stabilizing your upper body through the handlebars. [0] https://superbikeschool.com/about-us/machinery/no-b-s-machine/ https://superbikeschool.com/about-us/machinery/no-b-s-machin... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VqXBA-sGHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VqXBA-sGHA
somerandomqaguy 5y ago
If shifting your center of gravity was all that was needed, how are you supposed to turn a motorcycle a low speed without tipping the bike over when you're leaning into the turn? This video demonstrates rather clearly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNRJNwXljUo&t=285s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNRJNwXljUo&t=285s Guy's head is upright the whole time. This rider demonstrates it as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUUY5xn2p2s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUUY5xn2p2s You have to keep in mind how counter steering works. Take a pencil and try to balance it upright in your hand for a split second, then jerk your hand to the right. The tip of the pencil falls to the left, correct? Like wise, if you're trying to keep it upright, you move your hand into the direction the tip of the pencil is falling towards to get the bottom underneath the tip. That's what basically happens when you counter steer; the front tire turning is kicking the bike out from underneath yourself as it steers to the right, and it forces the bike to lean left. It's the leaning of the bike's tires that causes the actual turn to the left. The beauty of it the way the bike's frame and front wheel design, the front wheel naturally will want to turn back into the direction of where it's leaning in an attempt to stabilize itself. You preventing controlling that behavior, along with brake and throttle, is how a turn is maintained and how you exit a turn. That's not to say that COG doesn't affect the turn rate / radius, it absolutely does. It's also possible to turn the bike by just shifting the COG. But counter steering at most road speeds has a much higher maximum turn rate with better control over getting the bike pointed where you want to go and typically with less physical effort to initiate, maintain, and terminate the turn. And why I urge you to try again with counter steering (not necessarily push turning, you can pull to achieve the same effect). It's something easy to practice every time you make a turn and can very easily be the difference between swerve and a crash.
upofadown 5y ago
I think they might of skipped a level and thus caused confusion. You control a bike/motorcycle by adjusting its bank angle. To turn towards the left you bank towards the left. To bank towards the left you push on the left handlebar. Once you are banking you need to apply pressure to the right handlebar to prevent over banking. After that you apply pressure as required on both the right and left handlebars as required to maintain the desired bank angle. There is no direct mapping between the direction of turn and the side of the handlebar you apply pressure to. If you go to the trouble to tell someone how to start a turn you should then go on and tell them how to maintain that turn.
- mauvehaus 5y ago
  Bank angle and center of mass are related. You countersteer to shift the center of mass towards the inside of the turn, and then steer in the direction of the turn to maintain a balanced equilibrium at (more or less) constant speed in the turn. On a motorcycle, you can add throttle to bring the bank angle back to vertical. On a bicycle, you can steer deeper into the turn to perturb your center of mass back towards the vertical. You're a LOT more likely to notice this on a mountain bike than a road bike. If you start throwing a road bike around like you do a mountain bike in a tight section among trees, you're likely to end up using your helmet.
SkeuomorphicBee 5y ago
What you describe is not impossible, but it is very very hard. If you can balance yourself on a completely stationary bicycle (brakes fully applied), then you may be able to do what you describe, but for most people it is more probable that you actually do a tiny imperceptible amount of counter steer when you lean. Most people ride by counter steer without noticing because it is a tiny movement.

by dave78 5y ago

codingdave 5y ago

Be careful. I used to think the same thing. Until I got onto a bigger bike at higher speeds. My lean didn't cut it, not with that much weight at those speeds. I had some sketchy moments until I did what all the instructors said and pushed the dang handlebar.

function_seven 5y ago

You should take a look at the No BS Bike [0, 1]. It's a motorcycle with a second set of handlebars fixed to the frame. They don't connect to the forks; they don't rotate. Riders are challenged to hold on to these bars and lean the bike as they're underway. At speeds faster than 20mph or so, leaning has a negligible effect on the bike's lean and direction. You can do some very limited steering this way, but the amount of effort you put into it for the meager return quickly convinces riders that handlebar input it the way to control bike direction. When you were shifting your weight, were your arms attached to the handlebars? It's impossible to isolate your shifting of body weight from the related pushing or pulling on the bars if you're stabilizing your upper body through the handlebars. [0] https://superbikeschool.com/about-us/machinery/no-b-s-machine/ https://superbikeschool.com/about-us/machinery/no-b-s-machin... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VqXBA-sGHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VqXBA-sGHA

somerandomqaguy 5y ago

If shifting your center of gravity was all that was needed, how are you supposed to turn a motorcycle a low speed without tipping the bike over when you're leaning into the turn? This video demonstrates rather clearly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNRJNwXljUo&t=285s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNRJNwXljUo&t=285s Guy's head is upright the whole time. This rider demonstrates it as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUUY5xn2p2s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUUY5xn2p2s You have to keep in mind how counter steering works. Take a pencil and try to balance it upright in your hand for a split second, then jerk your hand to the right. The tip of the pencil falls to the left, correct? Like wise, if you're trying to keep it upright, you move your hand into the direction the tip of the pencil is falling towards to get the bottom underneath the tip. That's what basically happens when you counter steer; the front tire turning is kicking the bike out from underneath yourself as it steers to the right, and it forces the bike to lean left. It's the leaning of the bike's tires that causes the actual turn to the left. The beauty of it the way the bike's frame and front wheel design, the front wheel naturally will want to turn back into the direction of where it's leaning in an attempt to stabilize itself. You preventing controlling that behavior, along with brake and throttle, is how a turn is maintained and how you exit a turn. That's not to say that COG doesn't affect the turn rate / radius, it absolutely does. It's also possible to turn the bike by just shifting the COG. But counter steering at most road speeds has a much higher maximum turn rate with better control over getting the bike pointed where you want to go and typically with less physical effort to initiate, maintain, and terminate the turn. And why I urge you to try again with counter steering (not necessarily push turning, you can pull to achieve the same effect). It's something easy to practice every time you make a turn and can very easily be the difference between swerve and a crash.

upofadown 5y ago

I think they might of skipped a level and thus caused confusion. You control a bike/motorcycle by adjusting its bank angle. To turn towards the left you bank towards the left. To bank towards the left you push on the left handlebar. Once you are banking you need to apply pressure to the right handlebar to prevent over banking. After that you apply pressure as required on both the right and left handlebars as required to maintain the desired bank angle. There is no direct mapping between the direction of turn and the side of the handlebar you apply pressure to. If you go to the trouble to tell someone how to start a turn you should then go on and tell them how to maintain that turn.

mauvehaus 5y ago
Bank angle and center of mass are related. You countersteer to shift the center of mass towards the inside of the turn, and then steer in the direction of the turn to maintain a balanced equilibrium at (more or less) constant speed in the turn. On a motorcycle, you can add throttle to bring the bank angle back to vertical. On a bicycle, you can steer deeper into the turn to perturb your center of mass back towards the vertical. You're a LOT more likely to notice this on a mountain bike than a road bike. If you start throwing a road bike around like you do a mountain bike in a tight section among trees, you're likely to end up using your helmet.

SkeuomorphicBee 5y ago

What you describe is not impossible, but it is very very hard. If you can balance yourself on a completely stationary bicycle (brakes fully applied), then you may be able to do what you describe, but for most people it is more probable that you actually do a tiny imperceptible amount of counter steer when you lean. Most people ride by counter steer without noticing because it is a tiny movement.