6 ms·

Cycling, along with swimming, are the two activities I give that exemplifies how poor people are at explaining what they are doing. For cycling, most people wil

Cycling, along with swimming, are the two activities I give that exemplifies how poor people are at explaining what they are doing. For cycling, most people will adamantly claim that to turn left, you first turn the handle bars to the left. When they show me on a bike, they are surprised that they never noticed that they turn the handlebars right first. The funny part is, even people who know this and know it is called "countersteering" proceed to explain it in such a way that is actually less insightful than just telling someone to turn left. Almost no one mentions that the goal of a turn is to get the correct lean to a bike. With swimming, I did 7 years of lessons and never enjoyed swimming. My legs always got fatigued in a couple of minutes and could not go as fast as others. It did not matter how many good swimmers or instructors I told this to. It was not until a fellow engineer at university told me that your arms are what propel you forward and your legs simply keep you afloat. Such a simple statement did more than all those years of lessons. It is amusing to think about that, even with the best intentions, sometimes being taught something is the worst thing that can happen for you to actually learn it.

stefan_ 5y ago
Telling someone how to steer a bike is useless and plain unnecessary. You teach them to balance and they will naturally counter-steer. There is no theory class.
- mostertoaster 5y ago
  When I was a kid I had training wheels. It was terrible, it took me forever to learn how to ride because I was focused on turning and pedaling. My kids on their balance bikes just learned how to propel themselves forward by pushing off then balancing as long as they could. Learning the easy part of propel yourself forward with pedals was easy then.
  - eru 5y ago
    Learning how to ride a unicycle is somewhat similar, though the opposite: Here hard part is the back-front balancing, because it is intimately mixed up with pedaling for propulsion. If you already know how to ride a bi-cycle, then the left-right balancing is so easy, it's essentially free.
  - jacobolus 5y ago
    Let me add one more bit of advice here: Make sure your kid’s first pedal bike is relatively small and light weight. My 4.5-year-old was a balance-bike pro after 2 years’ practice, so we thought he’d be fine on a pedal bike. We got him one that was on the large side (but nominally fit him) hoping he would grow into it and keep riding it for a few years. But it was awkward and heavy and he didn’t want to try enough to really get going. After 6 months of no progress, the first pedal bike was stolen, and we bought him a much smaller lighter one. He was riding happily within the afternoon.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    The balance bikes with no pedals are really good for kids. They get it without any instruction. It's amazing seeing 2-year-olds zoom around effortlessly, and stop by just banging into the wall. But the act of pedalling seems to be more difficult for some. I tried teaching my 2-year-old niece how to pedal on her older sister's bike. She simply could not comprehend it, even though she's excellent on the balance bike. Even after watching others do it and slowly explaining it to her, it was like she was incapable of moving her legs that way. She'll pick it up in time, but she always wants to ride the "big kid" bikes and the pedals get in the way.
    - mostertoaster 5y ago
      Maybe you have like a combination of both. Start with balance bike, once they got that put them on a small bike with training wheels (force them to not focus on balance but pedaling), once they’re pedaling well, put them back on the balance bike for like a week and then take the training wheels off and try that. 3 of my kids got pedaling no problem, one got balancing super quick, but has a hard time pedaling still.
- porknubbins 5y ago
  This seems true with a bike but adults learning to drive motorcycles are actively taught the theory of how to countersteer. Even knowing how to ride a bicycle, motorcycle learners can make mistakes at low speeds or when swerving with a heavier vehicle. One reason you dont actually have to know how to countersteer a bicycle is that it can also be steered by weight shift which isn’t true for motorcycles in general.
rocketbop 5y ago
Well, really you _lean_ left more than you turn the handlebars...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kevmo314 5y ago
  It's not possible to lean without turning the handlebars. Counter steering initiates the lean.
  - NikolaNovak 5y ago
    I was kind of with you, but then I remembered that as a kid I was fairly skilled at riding the bike without hands on handlebars, including gentle but initiated and controlled turns. I agree that lean is key but experimentally, hands on handlebar is not a prerequisite.
    - spatulon 5y ago
      My old cycle commute into Oxford took me along the riverside path following the River Thames. There are no particularly sharp turns, but it does meander, and you'd get pretty wet if you couldn't steer. I once managed to cycle an entire 2-mile section along that path without touching the handlebars, so it definitely seems like it's possible to initiate steers just by shifting your body weight.
    - jonsen 5y ago
      You cannot make an overall lean. You can't just shift the center of mass. What happens is that you angle your upper body relative to the bike. If your upper body leans left, the bike leans right. If a bike running hands free leans, the front wheel turns in the direction of the lean. There you automatically have the counter steering when biking hands free. And this is really hard on a heavy motorbike. The bike will not angle much.
      - 5y ago
dave78 5y ago
A while back I got my motorcycle endorsement on my driver's license which required a class. The instructor taught us "to go left, push left", meaning push on the left handlebar (another way of saying "turn right", I guess). This idea was completely foreign to me but he insisted we all do it. What I discovered is that I most certainly do NOT turn right to go left. While I could do what he was suggesting (pushing on the left handlebar) and it would achieve the desired effect of transitioning me from a straight line to a right turn, it is not how I ride a bike (bicycle or motorcycle). I spent a long time experimenting with this, and from what I can tell, my natural way of turning is to shift my center of gravity by leaning my upper body. I truly, honestly do not think that I turn right first in order to go left (normally). I can see why people say this works, but I'm convinced this is not how I ride a bike. I think the "turn right to go left" is a way of using the bike to force you to lean. As best I can tell, I just skip that and do the leaning myself.
- codingdave 5y ago
  Be careful. I used to think the same thing. Until I got onto a bigger bike at higher speeds. My lean didn't cut it, not with that much weight at those speeds. I had some sketchy moments until I did what all the instructors said and pushed the dang handlebar.
- function_seven 5y ago
  You should take a look at the No BS Bike [0, 1]. It's a motorcycle with a second set of handlebars fixed to the frame. They don't connect to the forks; they don't rotate. Riders are challenged to hold on to these bars and lean the bike as they're underway. At speeds faster than 20mph or so, leaning has a negligible effect on the bike's lean and direction. You can do some very limited steering this way, but the amount of effort you put into it for the meager return quickly convinces riders that handlebar input it the way to control bike direction. When you were shifting your weight, were your arms attached to the handlebars? It's impossible to isolate your shifting of body weight from the related pushing or pulling on the bars if you're stabilizing your upper body through the handlebars. [0] https://superbikeschool.com/about-us/machinery/no-b-s-machine/ https://superbikeschool.com/about-us/machinery/no-b-s-machin... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VqXBA-sGHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VqXBA-sGHA
throw0101a 5y ago
> For cycling, most people will adamantly claim that to turn left, you first turn the handle bars to the left. This is challenge when trying to teach people how to ride a motorcycle. Counter-steering is counter-intuitive. One of the better explanatory ways I've heard: * put your hands on the handle bars * stuck your index fingers out * if you want to turn right, push/point your right index finger forward in the direction you want to travel† * to go left, push/point your left finger forward † Pushing the right handle bar causes the wheel to go left, travel on its 'edge', and cause the two-wheeled vehicle to tilt to the right.
- dsizzle 5y ago
  This video demonstrates that as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cNmUNHSBac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cNmUNHSBac
  - lillecarl 5y ago
    I'm really shocked about the claim that most people don't know about this. That's something I figured out when I was young by myself.
    - dsizzle 5y ago
      I didn’t know - I never really thought about it. What caused you to think about it?
      - jonsen 5y ago
        I found out when I was young too. I guess it's just curiosity about how things really work. And then of course attention to the fine details. Really feeling what goes on.
      - lillecarl 5y ago
        I'm generally curious how things I interact with work I guess, and it's quite obvious that riding a bike relies on balance, and this is just really balance.
warner25 5y ago
I was a fairly serious baseball player as a kid, and later got into golf, and what you describe is pervasive in those activities too. Coaches for generations have repeated things like "keep your elbow up" or "push off the rubber" that (accomplished) players don't actually do, and it's quite apparent if you watch any slow-motion video. I also struggled with swimming until I was in college and realized that floating is more about filling my lungs with air than anything people told me to do with my arms and legs. My epiphany was that people could float on their backs without moving their arms and legs at all. Now my kids are in a great swimming lesson program, and they start everything with taking a big breath and puffing out their cheeks. I wish someone had just told me that as a kid.
- newacc9 5y ago
  Maybe for most, but some people naturally sink. "The primary reason that certain people cannot float in water is an abnormally dense body composition. A higher bone density combined with a higher muscle mass percentage and a low body fat percentage will result in a natural inclination toward sinking rather than floating."
  - mauvehaus 5y ago
    Can confirm: if I fill my lungs with air and try to float on my back, I'll have my feet hanging downwards and just about only my lips sticking out of the water. Swimming is a lot like work.
    - Doxin 5y ago
      Just to confirm this being an actual thing some more: If I fill my lungs and lie on my back I float about a foot beneath the surface of the water. Keeping my head above water involves at the very least some semi-vigorous paddling.
  - eru 5y ago
    > Maybe for most, but some people naturally sink. Yes, but filling your lungs would still make a difference.
mr_sturd 5y ago
I watched a YouTube video[0] demonstrating this recently. It was definitely surprising to me and is just something that is done without thought. [0] https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac
andrewingram 5y ago
I have similar experiences from salsa lesson. I did years and years of classes, but did one private lesson (and a few years later another) with an exceptionally good teacher and got more enough actionable insights to fuel my improvement for at least a year. Even experienced dancers who teach will often say what they think they're doing rather than what they're actually doing, which I always find frustrating. The approaches that work best for me are: 1. Describe how it feels to do what I need to do 2. Describe at the biomechanical the principles of what I need to do, which muscles to engage, how my weight should be distributed etc.
jimmaswell 5y ago
I've been riding an ebike for a while and I noticed I almost solely turn by leaning. If I need more turn after leaning I'll turn the bars but I paid attention to this recently and I don't turn opposite first at that point. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
- filoleg 5y ago
  It sounds intuitively right. Source: not a bicycle, but I ride a motorcycle, an you are describing it the exact same way it is done on motorcycles as well at any speeds above “parking lot maneuvering” speeds.
- somerandomqaguy 5y ago
  It's possible to turn without counter steering, especially on a light weight ebike. But counter steering can achieve a higher rate of turn for less physical effort. It's also possible that you are counter steering intuitively without realizing it. It takes very little to initiate a turn; this rider demonstrates it quite well how little it takes and specifically talks about why someone might think they're turning without counter steering. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljywO-B_yew&t=198s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljywO-B_yew&t=198s That said this is more for motorcycles; the tires are much wider and thus motorcycles must lean over more to achieve the same rate of turn that an bicycle with narrower tires achieves.
KineticLensman 5y ago
"Keep the weight on the downhill ski" is the skiing equivalent of this. I never got it until an instructor taught me to skate on skis to travel over flat ground. I then finally understood where my weight should be when I turned (leaning out and down)

stefan_ 5y ago

Telling someone how to steer a bike is useless and plain unnecessary. You teach them to balance and they will naturally counter-steer. There is no theory class.

mostertoaster 5y ago
When I was a kid I had training wheels. It was terrible, it took me forever to learn how to ride because I was focused on turning and pedaling. My kids on their balance bikes just learned how to propel themselves forward by pushing off then balancing as long as they could. Learning the easy part of propel yourself forward with pedals was easy then.
- eru 5y ago
  Learning how to ride a unicycle is somewhat similar, though the opposite: Here hard part is the back-front balancing, because it is intimately mixed up with pedaling for propulsion. If you already know how to ride a bi-cycle, then the left-right balancing is so easy, it's essentially free.
- jacobolus 5y ago
  Let me add one more bit of advice here: Make sure your kid’s first pedal bike is relatively small and light weight. My 4.5-year-old was a balance-bike pro after 2 years’ practice, so we thought he’d be fine on a pedal bike. We got him one that was on the large side (but nominally fit him) hoping he would grow into it and keep riding it for a few years. But it was awkward and heavy and he didn’t want to try enough to really get going. After 6 months of no progress, the first pedal bike was stolen, and we bought him a much smaller lighter one. He was riding happily within the afternoon.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  The balance bikes with no pedals are really good for kids. They get it without any instruction. It's amazing seeing 2-year-olds zoom around effortlessly, and stop by just banging into the wall. But the act of pedalling seems to be more difficult for some. I tried teaching my 2-year-old niece how to pedal on her older sister's bike. She simply could not comprehend it, even though she's excellent on the balance bike. Even after watching others do it and slowly explaining it to her, it was like she was incapable of moving her legs that way. She'll pick it up in time, but she always wants to ride the "big kid" bikes and the pedals get in the way.
  - mostertoaster 5y ago
    Maybe you have like a combination of both. Start with balance bike, once they got that put them on a small bike with training wheels (force them to not focus on balance but pedaling), once they’re pedaling well, put them back on the balance bike for like a week and then take the training wheels off and try that. 3 of my kids got pedaling no problem, one got balancing super quick, but has a hard time pedaling still.
porknubbins 5y ago
This seems true with a bike but adults learning to drive motorcycles are actively taught the theory of how to countersteer. Even knowing how to ride a bicycle, motorcycle learners can make mistakes at low speeds or when swerving with a heavier vehicle. One reason you dont actually have to know how to countersteer a bicycle is that it can also be steered by weight shift which isn’t true for motorcycles in general.

rocketbop 5y ago

Well, really you _lean_ left more than you turn the handlebars...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kevmo314 5y ago
It's not possible to lean without turning the handlebars. Counter steering initiates the lean.
- NikolaNovak 5y ago
  I was kind of with you, but then I remembered that as a kid I was fairly skilled at riding the bike without hands on handlebars, including gentle but initiated and controlled turns. I agree that lean is key but experimentally, hands on handlebar is not a prerequisite.
  - spatulon 5y ago
    My old cycle commute into Oxford took me along the riverside path following the River Thames. There are no particularly sharp turns, but it does meander, and you'd get pretty wet if you couldn't steer. I once managed to cycle an entire 2-mile section along that path without touching the handlebars, so it definitely seems like it's possible to initiate steers just by shifting your body weight.
  - jonsen 5y ago
    You cannot make an overall lean. You can't just shift the center of mass. What happens is that you angle your upper body relative to the bike. If your upper body leans left, the bike leans right. If a bike running hands free leans, the front wheel turns in the direction of the lean. There you automatically have the counter steering when biking hands free. And this is really hard on a heavy motorbike. The bike will not angle much.
    - 5y ago

dave78 5y ago

A while back I got my motorcycle endorsement on my driver's license which required a class. The instructor taught us "to go left, push left", meaning push on the left handlebar (another way of saying "turn right", I guess). This idea was completely foreign to me but he insisted we all do it. What I discovered is that I most certainly do NOT turn right to go left. While I could do what he was suggesting (pushing on the left handlebar) and it would achieve the desired effect of transitioning me from a straight line to a right turn, it is not how I ride a bike (bicycle or motorcycle). I spent a long time experimenting with this, and from what I can tell, my natural way of turning is to shift my center of gravity by leaning my upper body. I truly, honestly do not think that I turn right first in order to go left (normally). I can see why people say this works, but I'm convinced this is not how I ride a bike. I think the "turn right to go left" is a way of using the bike to force you to lean. As best I can tell, I just skip that and do the leaning myself.

codingdave 5y ago
Be careful. I used to think the same thing. Until I got onto a bigger bike at higher speeds. My lean didn't cut it, not with that much weight at those speeds. I had some sketchy moments until I did what all the instructors said and pushed the dang handlebar.
function_seven 5y ago
You should take a look at the No BS Bike [0, 1]. It's a motorcycle with a second set of handlebars fixed to the frame. They don't connect to the forks; they don't rotate. Riders are challenged to hold on to these bars and lean the bike as they're underway. At speeds faster than 20mph or so, leaning has a negligible effect on the bike's lean and direction. You can do some very limited steering this way, but the amount of effort you put into it for the meager return quickly convinces riders that handlebar input it the way to control bike direction. When you were shifting your weight, were your arms attached to the handlebars? It's impossible to isolate your shifting of body weight from the related pushing or pulling on the bars if you're stabilizing your upper body through the handlebars. [0] https://superbikeschool.com/about-us/machinery/no-b-s-machine/ https://superbikeschool.com/about-us/machinery/no-b-s-machin... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VqXBA-sGHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VqXBA-sGHA

throw0101a 5y ago

> For cycling, most people will adamantly claim that to turn left, you first turn the handle bars to the left. This is challenge when trying to teach people how to ride a motorcycle. Counter-steering is counter-intuitive. One of the better explanatory ways I've heard: * put your hands on the handle bars * stuck your index fingers out * if you want to turn right, push/point your right index finger forward in the direction you want to travel† * to go left, push/point your left finger forward † Pushing the right handle bar causes the wheel to go left, travel on its 'edge', and cause the two-wheeled vehicle to tilt to the right.

dsizzle 5y ago
This video demonstrates that as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cNmUNHSBac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cNmUNHSBac
- lillecarl 5y ago
  I'm really shocked about the claim that most people don't know about this. That's something I figured out when I was young by myself.
  - dsizzle 5y ago
    I didn’t know - I never really thought about it. What caused you to think about it?
    - jonsen 5y ago
      I found out when I was young too. I guess it's just curiosity about how things really work. And then of course attention to the fine details. Really feeling what goes on.
    - lillecarl 5y ago
      I'm generally curious how things I interact with work I guess, and it's quite obvious that riding a bike relies on balance, and this is just really balance.

warner25 5y ago

I was a fairly serious baseball player as a kid, and later got into golf, and what you describe is pervasive in those activities too. Coaches for generations have repeated things like "keep your elbow up" or "push off the rubber" that (accomplished) players don't actually do, and it's quite apparent if you watch any slow-motion video. I also struggled with swimming until I was in college and realized that floating is more about filling my lungs with air than anything people told me to do with my arms and legs. My epiphany was that people could float on their backs without moving their arms and legs at all. Now my kids are in a great swimming lesson program, and they start everything with taking a big breath and puffing out their cheeks. I wish someone had just told me that as a kid.

newacc9 5y ago
Maybe for most, but some people naturally sink. "The primary reason that certain people cannot float in water is an abnormally dense body composition. A higher bone density combined with a higher muscle mass percentage and a low body fat percentage will result in a natural inclination toward sinking rather than floating."
- mauvehaus 5y ago
  Can confirm: if I fill my lungs with air and try to float on my back, I'll have my feet hanging downwards and just about only my lips sticking out of the water. Swimming is a lot like work.
  - Doxin 5y ago
    Just to confirm this being an actual thing some more: If I fill my lungs and lie on my back I float about a foot beneath the surface of the water. Keeping my head above water involves at the very least some semi-vigorous paddling.
- eru 5y ago
  > Maybe for most, but some people naturally sink. Yes, but filling your lungs would still make a difference.

mr_sturd 5y ago

I watched a YouTube video[0] demonstrating this recently. It was definitely surprising to me and is just something that is done without thought. [0] https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac

andrewingram 5y ago

I have similar experiences from salsa lesson. I did years and years of classes, but did one private lesson (and a few years later another) with an exceptionally good teacher and got more enough actionable insights to fuel my improvement for at least a year. Even experienced dancers who teach will often say what they think they're doing rather than what they're actually doing, which I always find frustrating. The approaches that work best for me are: 1. Describe how it feels to do what I need to do 2. Describe at the biomechanical the principles of what I need to do, which muscles to engage, how my weight should be distributed etc.

jimmaswell 5y ago

I've been riding an ebike for a while and I noticed I almost solely turn by leaning. If I need more turn after leaning I'll turn the bars but I paid attention to this recently and I don't turn opposite first at that point. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

filoleg 5y ago
It sounds intuitively right. Source: not a bicycle, but I ride a motorcycle, an you are describing it the exact same way it is done on motorcycles as well at any speeds above “parking lot maneuvering” speeds.
somerandomqaguy 5y ago
It's possible to turn without counter steering, especially on a light weight ebike. But counter steering can achieve a higher rate of turn for less physical effort. It's also possible that you are counter steering intuitively without realizing it. It takes very little to initiate a turn; this rider demonstrates it quite well how little it takes and specifically talks about why someone might think they're turning without counter steering. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljywO-B_yew&t=198s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljywO-B_yew&t=198s That said this is more for motorcycles; the tires are much wider and thus motorcycles must lean over more to achieve the same rate of turn that an bicycle with narrower tires achieves.

KineticLensman 5y ago

"Keep the weight on the downhill ski" is the skiing equivalent of this. I never got it until an instructor taught me to skate on skis to travel over flat ground. I then finally understood where my weight should be when I turned (leaning out and down)