5 ms·

Every answer in this thread is wrong except for "hire an attorney and work with them to figure out what the best option for you is." Do not follow any "free leg

Every answer in this thread is wrong except for "hire an attorney and work with them to figure out what the best option for you is." Do not follow any "free legal advice" from HN -- and I'm speaking as an actual licensed attorney.

ArtTimeInvestor 5y ago
Bullshit. Knowing your rights, reading the law and discussing it is a perfectly fine thing to do for everybody.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Knowing your rights, reading the law and discussing it is a perfectly fine thing to do for everybody. Sure. I am a former law student (in mid career when I did that), worked in legislative office, spent a large part of my career as a government program analyst that did lots of legal/compliance analysis, and spend huge amounts of reading and discussing the law, legal rights, etc. But when people have an immediate concrete legal problem with substantial property or other interests at stake, whatever other discussion of my understanding of the involved law involved might be interesting, the only correct advice in ~99.997% [0] of circumstances from anyone who is not a lawyer, or even just not the person involved’s lawyer on the matter, is to get someone who is your lawyer (at least for the length of a consultation) review and advise. [0] there are situations where the practical context is such that the law and legal advice are irrelevant, though they are quite exceptional.
dt3ft 5y ago
Of course an attorney would tell you to hire an attorney.
oauea 5y ago
> and I'm speaking as an actual licensed attorney. and so the racket continues
- codingdave 5y ago
  Exactly. Licensed attorney's typically avoid any commentary at all that could be construed as advice, to avoid creating a relationship. So if someone is sticking their neck out, it is hard to imagine there isn't an ulterior motive in telling everyone to lawyer up when they get a letter. Not that their advice is wrong - you should consult a lawyer over internet advice. But the "everyone else is wrong, listen to me" flavor is a bit heavy-handed.
  - otterley 5y ago
    I'm being heavy-handed here because 20 years ago, before I was a lawyer, I was sued, failed to hire counsel in time, and unnecessarily lost my shirt as a result. I don't want the same thing to happen to OP. Legal questions come up on HN from time to time and the usual response is a bunch of wannabe lawyers incorrecting one another, and if OP follows any of their advice, Bad Things could result. I spoke up early this time in what was perhaps a foolish attempt to short-circuit this. No competent attorney is going to give legal advice here -- money aside -- because they would be violating their professional ethics code by doing so. Giving legal advice requires knowing facts at a very detailed level (the degree to which is rarely found in the post), knowing the laws in the jurisdiction(s), and having relationships and experience. Not to mention attorney-client confidentiality, and other reasons.
    - sdoering 5y ago
      Thanks for being a voice of reason.
- CuriousCosmic 5y ago
  This is the equivalent of a doctor saying "if you think you have cancer, don't blindly listen to the internet and consult a doctor and I say that as a licensed medical professional". This isn't someone trying to rope someone into a racket for their own gain, it's "Our laws and legal system are a clusterfuck that varies wildly from region to region. Get a free (or at least cheap) consult instead of taking a risk trying to navigate this yourself". There is no situation in which it is worthwhile to take the risk to try and navigate that clusterfuck yourself. Spend the 50USD or so and the hour of your time it'll cost at most to get a consult and go from there. At best you can get something out of this whole interaction but at worst if you don't consult a lawyer you can end up without the domain, without any money from selling the domain, and saddled with legal fees defending a lawsuit against you.
zoe4883 5y ago
This sort of looks like template document. An actual attorney would send paper letter, not an email.
- otterley 5y ago
  False. C&D letters are sent via email all the time.
  - hedora 5y ago
    This is a great reason to ensure your mail client doesn’t auto-download embedded images, send read receipts, etc. No reason to tip your hand until a lawyer tells you to. For instance, the last time I dealt with a lawyer, they had me send responses directly, in hopes the other side would underestimate our position. It worked, fwiw.
  - reaperducer 5y ago
    False. C&D letters are sent via email all the time. Millions of Americans don't have e-mail. They're just on social media. What then? That's why important things are always sent by mail. Very important things by certified mail.
    - zrobotics 5y ago
      They may not check their email, but how is anyone on social media without email? I'm not aware of a single social site that doesn't require an email address to create an account.
      - otterley 5y ago
        I believe all of them allow the use of a mobile phone number as an alternative.
    - otterley 5y ago
      That's irrelevant for this issue. Domain holders have to provide working email addresses as a condition of registration, and are reminded annually to keep their addresses up to date. If an email address can't be found, the correspondence can be delivered through other means if necessary (mail, process server, etc.). But generally, there has no longer been a need to waste paper and postage to deliver notices since email became practically ubiquitous.
prepend 5y ago
I don’t question your motives in this instance, but I always pay extra attention when someone’s advice is to hire them or someone like them. Obviously, “hire a lawyer,” is sometimes right. But if I hired a lawyer every time I was told to, I would be out hundreds of hours of billing fees. Anecdotally, I’ve never fucked anything up royally. That doesn’t mean that I made the right decision, but is something I strive for. Spending $300-1000 on a consult every time I might need one is like taking an antibiotic every time I might have encountered a bacteria. It’s important to qualify and spend money when I actually need to rather than every time. It’s like those people who say “don’t criticize my book until you read it” (since that usually means that it makes them some money to have me buy their book). If I had to read every book to figure out if I should like it or not, that’s impossible. I need to develop effective evaluations and filters to prevent me from wasting my time and money.
- user3939382 5y ago
  > Spending $300-1000 on a consult every time I might need one Actually I’ve been surprised to find that many times even high priced attorneys are usually willing to spend 20-30 minutes+ giving you some general advice before even retaining them. I’ve gotten very valuable advice this way several times at no cost.
  - uberman 5y ago
    This is my personal experience as well.
    - devoutsalsa 5y ago
      They need to due a little due diligence before taking you in as a client, such as assessing if your needs fall within their expertise and whether you will be a potentially profitable client. If you work as hard as you can to summarize your case to respect their time, as opposed to rambling like an incoherent crazy person, you can often get a free pointer on how to handle the case & maybe a referral to someone who is better prepared to assist you.
- 5y ago
harryvederci 5y ago
You can add a layer in between: there are countries with a governmental institution[0] where you can go to for basic legal advice. They may point you to an attorney if needed, but for basic things they can give you advice themselves. [0] Dutch example: "Het Juridisch Loket"
- hedora 5y ago
  In the US, you can call your local bar association. They’ll generally find an appropriate lawyer, and charge a small amount for the initial consult/matchmaking.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Every answer in this thread is wrong except for "hire an attorney and work with them to figure out what the best option for you is." Do not follow any "free legal advice" from HN -- and I'm speaking as an actual licensed attorney. Speaking as a former law student that left because I got back into technology, and who is a fairly educated layman on the law but not someone with any financial interest in how people approach legal services, this.
laurent123456 5y ago
I don't know what's so special about law that it can never been discussed in any forum. You can certainly ask about other people's previous experience, possible advice or recommendations. For example for certain legal issues there are government websites that can help, etc. Saying "hire an attorney", as if it was no big deal to directly spend thousands without first asking around, is a bit strange.
- zbuf 5y ago
  It also incorrectly assumes the purpose of a forum (this and many others) is to simply find the answer to the person's question. For as long as people enjoy reading, writing and discussing, the only important thing is that readers can distinguish between "legal advice" and something some random person said on the internet.
- moksly 5y ago
  The advice sort of extends to any profession doesn’t it? Sometimes you can get good advice from strangers on social media, most times you probably shouldn’t risk anything on it though. It’s sort of like Google programming isn’t it? I’m sure you’ll get it to work, but you hopefully wouldn’t do it if you were building medical software that could end up killing people. That’s when you pay the experts.
- kingcharles 5y ago
  I've litigated dozens of cases on my own. Law isn't that complicated, especially for the smart people on here. You can often do a better job on your own simply because you have waaay more time to spend on the issue than a lawyer would. Plus you have skin in the game which makes you motivated in a way your lawyer will never be. The flip side to that is that it is illegal in most states to give legal advice to someone unless you are a lawyer. You can give legal information, but not advice. [Illinois once tried to prosecute me for the crime, so I have some experience]
rvba 5y ago
People tell to hire a lawyer, yet at same time hundreds of programmers copy snippets of code they dont understand, or use libraries unaudited by anyone
- ISL 5y ago
  Sometimes doing so yields an RCE, dealing substantial damage to both a company and its counterparties.
- throwaway2048 5y ago
  That says more about the profession of "Programmer" vs "Lawyer" than it does about some imagined hypocrisy.
ransom1538 5y ago
Do not respond to the letter. Do not engage. Do not alter your website. Do not hire a lawyer. The fastest way to enter into a legal battle is to hire an attorney and start engaging.
- dtech 5y ago
  Seems like an excellent way to lose your domain in a default judgement
  - ransom1538 5y ago
    "Strictly speaking, a cease and desist letter is not legally binding because the recipient can choose to ignore it. However, it is a valid legal document that establishes a precedent of a plaintiff's grievance. Usually, the letter sets a time limit for the recipient to comply with the request to desist from the offending action — or deliver an appropriate response if they believe the letter was sent in error." Take the letter. Delete it. Engaging is the fastest way to lose the domain. Their Lawyers want you to engage and start making written statements. Don't. "Seems like an excellent way to lose your domain in a default judgement" Lol. Don't ignore legal paperwork or court dates, which this isn't.
    - otterley 5y ago
      This is not legal advice, but I don't recommend waiting until a suit is filed. Hiring counsel early and figuring out how to respond to the initial notice can be important: it might keep the courts out of the dispute altogether (especially if the other side is on very weak grounds) and might increase the settlement amount (if any) should OP choose to settle and transfer the domain. There's more to this issue than just the naked law and legal procedure. Context matters, and experienced lawyers help you navigate situations. They're called "counsel" for a reason. :-)
      - ransom1538 5y ago
        Reminds me of my favorite lawyer youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgWHrkDX35o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgWHrkDX35o
jksmith 5y ago
Agree, just got a TM, and the journey was full of grey areas and few to zero xor solutions. For all the lawyer haters, the game is already rigged, so don't hate the player.
chiefalchemist 5y ago
Can't up vote this enough. 1) This is an ex co-worker . I believe she's well versed in such things. I get nothing for this mention. https://kinneyfirm.com/ https://kinneyfirm.com/ 2) That said, one of the keys to trademark is being in the same industry, such that the public might get confused. Apple Computer striking a deal with Apple Records, once the former started to sell music, is a good example. Prior to that, there was no (legal or market) overlap of the two.
- daveevad 5y ago
  One thing I noticed during the Get Back Beatles Documentary recently released, is that Apple Records was a subsidiary of Apple Corps. The Beatles' Apple had much bolder ambitions than I had realized. In the film, they discussed movies and performances under the Apple umbrella. John Lennon himself described it as: "we've got this thing called 'Apple' which is going to be records, films, and electronics – which all tie up."
- mlyle 5y ago
  > 2) That said, one of the keys to trademark is being in the same industry, such that the public might get confused. Note that this is generally true for trademark law, but there are things like the ICANN/WIPO UDRP that can be used to expropriate domain names that have somewhat of a different standard.
rfrey 5y ago
Person who charges $600/hour: "your only correct action is to hire a person who charges $600/hour." Sorry for the snarkiness, but I'm continuously gobsmacked by how oblivious people, especially attorneys, can be to the fact that the Game of Justice as it is played in these parts is simply not accessible to the vast majority of people, who can only try to find another way to work around the system even if it's probably doomed to failure.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jevoten 5y ago
You act like getting informed on the law is somehow contrary to hiring a lawyer, which is especially bizarre, since most of the advice was phrased as "in my experience X is likely to happen, but you should consult with a lawyer". Is it wrong to try to be informed of the law (when ignorance is rarely an excuse)? To find out what rights a trademark or a domain name confer? Or to list precedent and examples, such as nissan.com? We should just stick our heads in the sand, resign ourselves to total ignorance and helplessness, and let the lawyers do all the thinking? Lets make this specific. Look at this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29522196 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29522196 Are you saying every part of that comment, except for "This is probably not DIY territory; consult a lawyer knowledgable about trademark law to help you determine how to respond." is wrong? For example, is the following statement wrong in the U.S.? > Just like patents have a concept of "prior art," trademarks have a concept of "first use in commerce."

ArtTimeInvestor 5y ago

Bullshit. Knowing your rights, reading the law and discussing it is a perfectly fine thing to do for everybody.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Knowing your rights, reading the law and discussing it is a perfectly fine thing to do for everybody. Sure. I am a former law student (in mid career when I did that), worked in legislative office, spent a large part of my career as a government program analyst that did lots of legal/compliance analysis, and spend huge amounts of reading and discussing the law, legal rights, etc. But when people have an immediate concrete legal problem with substantial property or other interests at stake, whatever other discussion of my understanding of the involved law involved might be interesting, the only correct advice in ~99.997% [0] of circumstances from anyone who is not a lawyer, or even just not the person involved’s lawyer on the matter, is to get someone who is your lawyer (at least for the length of a consultation) review and advise. [0] there are situations where the practical context is such that the law and legal advice are irrelevant, though they are quite exceptional.

dt3ft 5y ago

Of course an attorney would tell you to hire an attorney.

oauea 5y ago

> and I'm speaking as an actual licensed attorney. and so the racket continues

codingdave 5y ago
Exactly. Licensed attorney's typically avoid any commentary at all that could be construed as advice, to avoid creating a relationship. So if someone is sticking their neck out, it is hard to imagine there isn't an ulterior motive in telling everyone to lawyer up when they get a letter. Not that their advice is wrong - you should consult a lawyer over internet advice. But the "everyone else is wrong, listen to me" flavor is a bit heavy-handed.
- otterley 5y ago
  I'm being heavy-handed here because 20 years ago, before I was a lawyer, I was sued, failed to hire counsel in time, and unnecessarily lost my shirt as a result. I don't want the same thing to happen to OP. Legal questions come up on HN from time to time and the usual response is a bunch of wannabe lawyers incorrecting one another, and if OP follows any of their advice, Bad Things could result. I spoke up early this time in what was perhaps a foolish attempt to short-circuit this. No competent attorney is going to give legal advice here -- money aside -- because they would be violating their professional ethics code by doing so. Giving legal advice requires knowing facts at a very detailed level (the degree to which is rarely found in the post), knowing the laws in the jurisdiction(s), and having relationships and experience. Not to mention attorney-client confidentiality, and other reasons.
  - sdoering 5y ago
    Thanks for being a voice of reason.
CuriousCosmic 5y ago
This is the equivalent of a doctor saying "if you think you have cancer, don't blindly listen to the internet and consult a doctor and I say that as a licensed medical professional". This isn't someone trying to rope someone into a racket for their own gain, it's "Our laws and legal system are a clusterfuck that varies wildly from region to region. Get a free (or at least cheap) consult instead of taking a risk trying to navigate this yourself". There is no situation in which it is worthwhile to take the risk to try and navigate that clusterfuck yourself. Spend the 50USD or so and the hour of your time it'll cost at most to get a consult and go from there. At best you can get something out of this whole interaction but at worst if you don't consult a lawyer you can end up without the domain, without any money from selling the domain, and saddled with legal fees defending a lawsuit against you.

zoe4883 5y ago

This sort of looks like template document. An actual attorney would send paper letter, not an email.

otterley 5y ago
False. C&D letters are sent via email all the time.
- hedora 5y ago
  This is a great reason to ensure your mail client doesn’t auto-download embedded images, send read receipts, etc. No reason to tip your hand until a lawyer tells you to. For instance, the last time I dealt with a lawyer, they had me send responses directly, in hopes the other side would underestimate our position. It worked, fwiw.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  False. C&D letters are sent via email all the time. Millions of Americans don't have e-mail. They're just on social media. What then? That's why important things are always sent by mail. Very important things by certified mail.
  - zrobotics 5y ago
    They may not check their email, but how is anyone on social media without email? I'm not aware of a single social site that doesn't require an email address to create an account.
    - otterley 5y ago
      I believe all of them allow the use of a mobile phone number as an alternative.
  - otterley 5y ago
    That's irrelevant for this issue. Domain holders have to provide working email addresses as a condition of registration, and are reminded annually to keep their addresses up to date. If an email address can't be found, the correspondence can be delivered through other means if necessary (mail, process server, etc.). But generally, there has no longer been a need to waste paper and postage to deliver notices since email became practically ubiquitous.

prepend 5y ago

I don’t question your motives in this instance, but I always pay extra attention when someone’s advice is to hire them or someone like them. Obviously, “hire a lawyer,” is sometimes right. But if I hired a lawyer every time I was told to, I would be out hundreds of hours of billing fees. Anecdotally, I’ve never fucked anything up royally. That doesn’t mean that I made the right decision, but is something I strive for. Spending $300-1000 on a consult every time I might need one is like taking an antibiotic every time I might have encountered a bacteria. It’s important to qualify and spend money when I actually need to rather than every time. It’s like those people who say “don’t criticize my book until you read it” (since that usually means that it makes them some money to have me buy their book). If I had to read every book to figure out if I should like it or not, that’s impossible. I need to develop effective evaluations and filters to prevent me from wasting my time and money.

user3939382 5y ago
> Spending $300-1000 on a consult every time I might need one Actually I’ve been surprised to find that many times even high priced attorneys are usually willing to spend 20-30 minutes+ giving you some general advice before even retaining them. I’ve gotten very valuable advice this way several times at no cost.
- uberman 5y ago
  This is my personal experience as well.
  - devoutsalsa 5y ago
    They need to due a little due diligence before taking you in as a client, such as assessing if your needs fall within their expertise and whether you will be a potentially profitable client. If you work as hard as you can to summarize your case to respect their time, as opposed to rambling like an incoherent crazy person, you can often get a free pointer on how to handle the case & maybe a referral to someone who is better prepared to assist you.
5y ago

harryvederci 5y ago

You can add a layer in between: there are countries with a governmental institution[0] where you can go to for basic legal advice. They may point you to an attorney if needed, but for basic things they can give you advice themselves. [0] Dutch example: "Het Juridisch Loket"

hedora 5y ago
In the US, you can call your local bar association. They’ll generally find an appropriate lawyer, and charge a small amount for the initial consult/matchmaking.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Every answer in this thread is wrong except for "hire an attorney and work with them to figure out what the best option for you is." Do not follow any "free legal advice" from HN -- and I'm speaking as an actual licensed attorney. Speaking as a former law student that left because I got back into technology, and who is a fairly educated layman on the law but not someone with any financial interest in how people approach legal services, this.

laurent123456 5y ago

I don't know what's so special about law that it can never been discussed in any forum. You can certainly ask about other people's previous experience, possible advice or recommendations. For example for certain legal issues there are government websites that can help, etc. Saying "hire an attorney", as if it was no big deal to directly spend thousands without first asking around, is a bit strange.

zbuf 5y ago
It also incorrectly assumes the purpose of a forum (this and many others) is to simply find the answer to the person's question. For as long as people enjoy reading, writing and discussing, the only important thing is that readers can distinguish between "legal advice" and something some random person said on the internet.
moksly 5y ago
The advice sort of extends to any profession doesn’t it? Sometimes you can get good advice from strangers on social media, most times you probably shouldn’t risk anything on it though. It’s sort of like Google programming isn’t it? I’m sure you’ll get it to work, but you hopefully wouldn’t do it if you were building medical software that could end up killing people. That’s when you pay the experts.
kingcharles 5y ago
I've litigated dozens of cases on my own. Law isn't that complicated, especially for the smart people on here. You can often do a better job on your own simply because you have waaay more time to spend on the issue than a lawyer would. Plus you have skin in the game which makes you motivated in a way your lawyer will never be. The flip side to that is that it is illegal in most states to give legal advice to someone unless you are a lawyer. You can give legal information, but not advice. [Illinois once tried to prosecute me for the crime, so I have some experience]

rvba 5y ago

People tell to hire a lawyer, yet at same time hundreds of programmers copy snippets of code they dont understand, or use libraries unaudited by anyone

ISL 5y ago
Sometimes doing so yields an RCE, dealing substantial damage to both a company and its counterparties.
throwaway2048 5y ago
That says more about the profession of "Programmer" vs "Lawyer" than it does about some imagined hypocrisy.

ransom1538 5y ago

Do not respond to the letter. Do not engage. Do not alter your website. Do not hire a lawyer. The fastest way to enter into a legal battle is to hire an attorney and start engaging.

dtech 5y ago
Seems like an excellent way to lose your domain in a default judgement
- ransom1538 5y ago
  "Strictly speaking, a cease and desist letter is not legally binding because the recipient can choose to ignore it. However, it is a valid legal document that establishes a precedent of a plaintiff's grievance. Usually, the letter sets a time limit for the recipient to comply with the request to desist from the offending action — or deliver an appropriate response if they believe the letter was sent in error." Take the letter. Delete it. Engaging is the fastest way to lose the domain. Their Lawyers want you to engage and start making written statements. Don't. "Seems like an excellent way to lose your domain in a default judgement" Lol. Don't ignore legal paperwork or court dates, which this isn't.
  - otterley 5y ago
    This is not legal advice, but I don't recommend waiting until a suit is filed. Hiring counsel early and figuring out how to respond to the initial notice can be important: it might keep the courts out of the dispute altogether (especially if the other side is on very weak grounds) and might increase the settlement amount (if any) should OP choose to settle and transfer the domain. There's more to this issue than just the naked law and legal procedure. Context matters, and experienced lawyers help you navigate situations. They're called "counsel" for a reason. :-)
    - ransom1538 5y ago
      Reminds me of my favorite lawyer youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgWHrkDX35o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgWHrkDX35o

jksmith 5y ago

Agree, just got a TM, and the journey was full of grey areas and few to zero xor solutions. For all the lawyer haters, the game is already rigged, so don't hate the player.

chiefalchemist 5y ago

Can't up vote this enough. 1) This is an ex co-worker . I believe she's well versed in such things. I get nothing for this mention. https://kinneyfirm.com/ https://kinneyfirm.com/ 2) That said, one of the keys to trademark is being in the same industry, such that the public might get confused. Apple Computer striking a deal with Apple Records, once the former started to sell music, is a good example. Prior to that, there was no (legal or market) overlap of the two.

daveevad 5y ago
One thing I noticed during the Get Back Beatles Documentary recently released, is that Apple Records was a subsidiary of Apple Corps. The Beatles' Apple had much bolder ambitions than I had realized. In the film, they discussed movies and performances under the Apple umbrella. John Lennon himself described it as: "we've got this thing called 'Apple' which is going to be records, films, and electronics – which all tie up."
mlyle 5y ago
> 2) That said, one of the keys to trademark is being in the same industry, such that the public might get confused. Note that this is generally true for trademark law, but there are things like the ICANN/WIPO UDRP that can be used to expropriate domain names that have somewhat of a different standard.

rfrey 5y ago

Person who charges $600/hour: "your only correct action is to hire a person who charges $600/hour." Sorry for the snarkiness, but I'm continuously gobsmacked by how oblivious people, especially attorneys, can be to the fact that the Game of Justice as it is played in these parts is simply not accessible to the vast majority of people, who can only try to find another way to work around the system even if it's probably doomed to failure.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

jevoten 5y ago

You act like getting informed on the law is somehow contrary to hiring a lawyer, which is especially bizarre, since most of the advice was phrased as "in my experience X is likely to happen, but you should consult with a lawyer". Is it wrong to try to be informed of the law (when ignorance is rarely an excuse)? To find out what rights a trademark or a domain name confer? Or to list precedent and examples, such as nissan.com? We should just stick our heads in the sand, resign ourselves to total ignorance and helplessness, and let the lawyers do all the thinking? Lets make this specific. Look at this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29522196 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29522196 Are you saying every part of that comment, except for "This is probably not DIY territory; consult a lawyer knowledgable about trademark law to help you determine how to respond." is wrong? For example, is the following statement wrong in the U.S.? > Just like patents have a concept of "prior art," trademarks have a concept of "first use in commerce."