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I think you'll find that common people care a lot more about the common good than billionaires; in case you'd actually missed the point.

rowanG077 5y ago
This isn't obvious at all to me. Why do you think this?
- mandmandam 5y ago
  Really? The last few thousand years of history have been pretty illustrative; the last 50 especially so. The uber-wealthy have no direct dependence on functional public services. They have no need (and even a preference) for corrupt legal and political systems. They (hire people to) work day and night to gut regulations that protect us, and they cover for each other and circle the wagons when anyone starts getting too close to breaking any part of the golden circle. If people institute progressive tax systems, billionaires find a way to dodge or loophole their way out; going so far as to leave if people demand "too much". Modern billionaires find creative ways to exploit workers and demonize unions. Compare all that to the decent and normal people you know, assuming you have something like a normal life. The people I know are happy enough to pay their share for the common good, and wouldn't dream of hiring some slimeball tax accountant to figure out how to hold on to as much as possible - see Pandora, Paradise, etc. No one normal is paying politicians to break regulations, or writing legislation that allows for tax loopholes, or removing any possibility of accountability for "malfeasance" like oil spills or banking crises. And billionaire owned media is happy for none of this to be in the national conversation. But once you start looking - it's pretty obvious.
  - rowanG077 5y ago
    So you are saying "normal" people don't hire accountants to ensure they pay the minimal amount of tax while wealthy people do? Normal people don't hire accountants for the simple fact that it isn't economically viable for them. The taxes they could save is much lower then the pay for the accountant. This balance is of course completely different for a billionaire. I'm willing to bet that if the cost of hiring an accountant would be 500$ and a normal person would pay 5000$ less in tax because of that then almost everyone would have an accountant at the ready. In fact you would be financially irresponsible not doing that. The thing you talk about in your post is that billionaires have more power and use that power to their advantage. Not unlike what anyone really does. Except that billionaires have much more weight to throw around.
    - mandmandam 5y ago
      > So you are saying "normal" people don't hire accountants to ensure they pay the minimal amount of tax while wealthy people do? Did I say that? Or did I specifically refer to slimeballs, loopholes, Paradise and Panama papers, bribing legislators etc. Do normal people do that, in your view? Because it seems pretty normal among billionaires. I don't remember any normal people paying thugs to bust up strikes, or paying to print anti union propaganda and rig unionising votes. You seem to be saying, might makes right; and that we'd do those things above if we were in their position. Even if that were true (it's not), that would be all the more reason to change the rules that allow such consolidation of wealth and abuse of power to exist. Going back to your original claim - that it's not obvious (to you) that billionaires care less about the common good than common people - here is a poem that has survived the last 250+ years. The law locks up the man or woman Who steals the goose from off the common But leaves the greater villain loose Who steals the common from off the goose . The law demands that we atone When we take things we do not own But leaves the lords and ladies fine Who take things that are yours and mine . The poor and wretched don't escape If they conspire the law to break This must be so but they endure Those who conspire to make the law . The law locks up the man or woman Who steals the goose from off the common And geese will still a common lack Till they go and steal it back
      - rowanG077 5y ago
        > Did I say that? Or did I specifically refer to slimeballs, loopholes, Paradise and Panama papers, bribing legislators etc. With the exception of bribing legislators these are perfectly fine things to do. And in fact amount to having a smart accountant. > I don't remember any normal people paying thugs to bust up strikes, or paying to print anti union propaganda and rig unionising votes. I don't remember any billionaires doing that either. What I do remember is companies doing that might have a billionaire at the helm. And as far as I can see most companies helmed by a billionaire do not do that. > You seem to be saying, might makes right; and that we'd do those things above if we were in their position. Even if that were true (it's not), that would be all the more reason to change the rules that allow such consolidation of wealth and abuse of power to exist. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying my default assumption is that the expected behavior of normal people and billionaires is the same. The billionaires outcome is simply different because they are billionaires, they have much more weight to throw around. > Going back to your original claim - that it's not obvious (to you) that billionaires care less about the common good than common people - here is a poem that has survived the last 250+ years Yes and we also used to believe putting blood sucking leeches on your skin to suck out blood would cure illnesses. It's always easy to blame someone in a better position then yourself. Something that exists in a poem doesn't mean anything. What I'm asking of you is essentially do you have data/studies that shows very wealthy people have a fundamentally different psychological profile in regards to caring about society then non wealthy people. Because that is your claim. There are also plenty of counter examples. Like the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation or Azim Premji. Or the entire billionaire philanthropist archetype.

rowanG077 5y ago

This isn't obvious at all to me. Why do you think this?

mandmandam 5y ago
Really? The last few thousand years of history have been pretty illustrative; the last 50 especially so. The uber-wealthy have no direct dependence on functional public services. They have no need (and even a preference) for corrupt legal and political systems. They (hire people to) work day and night to gut regulations that protect us, and they cover for each other and circle the wagons when anyone starts getting too close to breaking any part of the golden circle. If people institute progressive tax systems, billionaires find a way to dodge or loophole their way out; going so far as to leave if people demand "too much". Modern billionaires find creative ways to exploit workers and demonize unions. Compare all that to the decent and normal people you know, assuming you have something like a normal life. The people I know are happy enough to pay their share for the common good, and wouldn't dream of hiring some slimeball tax accountant to figure out how to hold on to as much as possible - see Pandora, Paradise, etc. No one normal is paying politicians to break regulations, or writing legislation that allows for tax loopholes, or removing any possibility of accountability for "malfeasance" like oil spills or banking crises. And billionaire owned media is happy for none of this to be in the national conversation. But once you start looking - it's pretty obvious.
- rowanG077 5y ago
  So you are saying "normal" people don't hire accountants to ensure they pay the minimal amount of tax while wealthy people do? Normal people don't hire accountants for the simple fact that it isn't economically viable for them. The taxes they could save is much lower then the pay for the accountant. This balance is of course completely different for a billionaire. I'm willing to bet that if the cost of hiring an accountant would be 500$ and a normal person would pay 5000$ less in tax because of that then almost everyone would have an accountant at the ready. In fact you would be financially irresponsible not doing that. The thing you talk about in your post is that billionaires have more power and use that power to their advantage. Not unlike what anyone really does. Except that billionaires have much more weight to throw around.
  - mandmandam 5y ago
    > So you are saying "normal" people don't hire accountants to ensure they pay the minimal amount of tax while wealthy people do? Did I say that? Or did I specifically refer to slimeballs, loopholes, Paradise and Panama papers, bribing legislators etc. Do normal people do that, in your view? Because it seems pretty normal among billionaires. I don't remember any normal people paying thugs to bust up strikes, or paying to print anti union propaganda and rig unionising votes. You seem to be saying, might makes right; and that we'd do those things above if we were in their position. Even if that were true (it's not), that would be all the more reason to change the rules that allow such consolidation of wealth and abuse of power to exist. Going back to your original claim - that it's not obvious (to you) that billionaires care less about the common good than common people - here is a poem that has survived the last 250+ years. The law locks up the man or woman Who steals the goose from off the common But leaves the greater villain loose Who steals the common from off the goose . The law demands that we atone When we take things we do not own But leaves the lords and ladies fine Who take things that are yours and mine . The poor and wretched don't escape If they conspire the law to break This must be so but they endure Those who conspire to make the law . The law locks up the man or woman Who steals the goose from off the common And geese will still a common lack Till they go and steal it back
    - rowanG077 5y ago
      > Did I say that? Or did I specifically refer to slimeballs, loopholes, Paradise and Panama papers, bribing legislators etc. With the exception of bribing legislators these are perfectly fine things to do. And in fact amount to having a smart accountant. > I don't remember any normal people paying thugs to bust up strikes, or paying to print anti union propaganda and rig unionising votes. I don't remember any billionaires doing that either. What I do remember is companies doing that might have a billionaire at the helm. And as far as I can see most companies helmed by a billionaire do not do that. > You seem to be saying, might makes right; and that we'd do those things above if we were in their position. Even if that were true (it's not), that would be all the more reason to change the rules that allow such consolidation of wealth and abuse of power to exist. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying my default assumption is that the expected behavior of normal people and billionaires is the same. The billionaires outcome is simply different because they are billionaires, they have much more weight to throw around. > Going back to your original claim - that it's not obvious (to you) that billionaires care less about the common good than common people - here is a poem that has survived the last 250+ years Yes and we also used to believe putting blood sucking leeches on your skin to suck out blood would cure illnesses. It's always easy to blame someone in a better position then yourself. Something that exists in a poem doesn't mean anything. What I'm asking of you is essentially do you have data/studies that shows very wealthy people have a fundamentally different psychological profile in regards to caring about society then non wealthy people. Because that is your claim. There are also plenty of counter examples. Like the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation or Azim Premji. Or the entire billionaire philanthropist archetype.