5 ms·

> The solution: paid overtime The first step to getting there is a union.

by bogwog 5y ago

eru 5y ago
What makes you think so? Mainstream economics would suggest that high productivity and plenty of competition between employers gets you benefits. That's what worked for programmers rather well. Thanks also to low barriers to entry for new companies. (Especially if you compare programmers to people in other industries, also in other countries and in other historical eras. That would make the impact of unions vs the factors I outlined above more apparent.) In any case, feel free to form or join a union, if you want to try it.
- myownpetard 5y ago
  Paid OT is not something an individual can negotiate for when it is unprecedented in the industry. It also wouldn't surprise me if major game studios have a handshake agreement to never offer paid OT. It would probably be easier to avoid a class action lawsuit for that than salary fixing a la Google and Apple et al.
  - eru 5y ago
    You don't have to negotiate explicitly. As a customer in retail you seldom negotiate explicitly with Burger or Walmart or Amazon directly, you just vote with your feet (and wallet). Investigate your potential employers before you take a job. If you like none of them, at least pick the lesser evil, or move into an adjacent industry. (Eg lots of game programmers are more than welcome in Internet or in finance etc.)
    - myownpetard 5y ago
      If you want to compel an industry to fundamentally change its compensation structure, history indicates that you do need to organize and negotiate collectively and explicitly. See the 8 hour workday and the 5 day workweek as examples.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  The state of game development jobs, with near universal "crunch", lower pay than much of the industry, sexual harassment and discrimination everywhere, suggests that the market is not correcting for these things, isn't it? And, of course, all this while gaming is a booming industry attracting (and requiring) workers in droves.
  - Asooka 5y ago
    Don't extrapolate to the whole sector from a few high profile failures. There are places like e.g. Hello Games, who don't do crunch, and my friends at Ubisoft tell me they do only a little overtime right before shipping. If you watch SIGGRAPH, you can see a lot of good real-time graphics research come out of DICE, Epic, Unity. I doubt those people are doing much overtime either. Not that I would go work there, being a game developer is below my pay grade, but not every place is as bad as ActiBlizz.
    - tsimionescu 5y ago
      Sure, but it is much more the norm than in other industries, at the very least. And Ubisoft had their own sexual misconduct and discrimination scandal quite recently[0]. [0] https://kotaku.com/ubisoft-ceo-and-others-blamed-for-institutional-harassm-1847306435 https://kotaku.com/ubisoft-ceo-and-others-blamed-for-institu...
  - eru 5y ago
    > The state of game development jobs, with near universal "crunch", lower pay than much of the industry, sexual harassment and discrimination everywhere, suggests that the market is not correcting for these things, isn't it? It totally is! So first, I suspect crunch time sort-of works. In the sense that it allows you to bring out a product a bit sooner, but burn out your people in the process. The game industry is as bad an employer as it can get away with, because so many people are eager to join. That's why the game industry can mostly get away with low pay and crunch time. Working your standard programming job at Boring Inc is less cool, so people demand more in return. More money, more perks, better treatment. It's all about equilibria. So if you want to 'fix' the game industry, the way to go about this is to make the alternatives more appealing. There are plenty of example where regulation (or similar) tried to fix unsavoury industries by fiat. Eg look at Orange in France. Orange is the former French telecoms monopolist. As such, they employ way more people than current management wants. But firing people is extremely hard in France. As unintended consequence, management has no incentive to make the life of marginal employees bearable, and every incentive to avert their eyes from bullying, etc. Cue the French complaining how 'neoliberalism' causes suicides at Orange. https://www.dw.com/en/france-orange-top-bosses-caused-employee-suicides-rules-court/a-51751140 https://www.dw.com/en/france-orange-top-bosses-caused-employ...
- d13 5y ago
  I worked for 3 years as a unionized game developer at public sector company in Canada and can confirm it is absolutely the best situation - for developers. All other non-unionised companies I’ve worked for - except for the small boutiques - were deeply unhappy burnout factories. Yes, you can vote with your feet - but the journey to the door is over searing hot coals. Unionise.
  - eru 5y ago
    You can vote with your feet before you ever set your feet in the door in the first place. Please unionise all you want, but don't force me to be part of your union or adhere by what you negotiate.

> The solution: paid overtime The first step to getting there is a union.

by bogwog 5y ago

> The solution: paid overtime The first step to getting there is a union.

eru 5y ago

What makes you think so? Mainstream economics would suggest that high productivity and plenty of competition between employers gets you benefits. That's what worked for programmers rather well. Thanks also to low barriers to entry for new companies. (Especially if you compare programmers to people in other industries, also in other countries and in other historical eras. That would make the impact of unions vs the factors I outlined above more apparent.) In any case, feel free to form or join a union, if you want to try it.

myownpetard 5y ago
Paid OT is not something an individual can negotiate for when it is unprecedented in the industry. It also wouldn't surprise me if major game studios have a handshake agreement to never offer paid OT. It would probably be easier to avoid a class action lawsuit for that than salary fixing a la Google and Apple et al.
- eru 5y ago
  You don't have to negotiate explicitly. As a customer in retail you seldom negotiate explicitly with Burger or Walmart or Amazon directly, you just vote with your feet (and wallet). Investigate your potential employers before you take a job. If you like none of them, at least pick the lesser evil, or move into an adjacent industry. (Eg lots of game programmers are more than welcome in Internet or in finance etc.)
  - myownpetard 5y ago
    If you want to compel an industry to fundamentally change its compensation structure, history indicates that you do need to organize and negotiate collectively and explicitly. See the 8 hour workday and the 5 day workweek as examples.
tsimionescu 5y ago
The state of game development jobs, with near universal "crunch", lower pay than much of the industry, sexual harassment and discrimination everywhere, suggests that the market is not correcting for these things, isn't it? And, of course, all this while gaming is a booming industry attracting (and requiring) workers in droves.
- Asooka 5y ago
  Don't extrapolate to the whole sector from a few high profile failures. There are places like e.g. Hello Games, who don't do crunch, and my friends at Ubisoft tell me they do only a little overtime right before shipping. If you watch SIGGRAPH, you can see a lot of good real-time graphics research come out of DICE, Epic, Unity. I doubt those people are doing much overtime either. Not that I would go work there, being a game developer is below my pay grade, but not every place is as bad as ActiBlizz.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    Sure, but it is much more the norm than in other industries, at the very least. And Ubisoft had their own sexual misconduct and discrimination scandal quite recently[0]. [0] https://kotaku.com/ubisoft-ceo-and-others-blamed-for-institutional-harassm-1847306435 https://kotaku.com/ubisoft-ceo-and-others-blamed-for-institu...
- eru 5y ago
  > The state of game development jobs, with near universal "crunch", lower pay than much of the industry, sexual harassment and discrimination everywhere, suggests that the market is not correcting for these things, isn't it? It totally is! So first, I suspect crunch time sort-of works. In the sense that it allows you to bring out a product a bit sooner, but burn out your people in the process. The game industry is as bad an employer as it can get away with, because so many people are eager to join. That's why the game industry can mostly get away with low pay and crunch time. Working your standard programming job at Boring Inc is less cool, so people demand more in return. More money, more perks, better treatment. It's all about equilibria. So if you want to 'fix' the game industry, the way to go about this is to make the alternatives more appealing. There are plenty of example where regulation (or similar) tried to fix unsavoury industries by fiat. Eg look at Orange in France. Orange is the former French telecoms monopolist. As such, they employ way more people than current management wants. But firing people is extremely hard in France. As unintended consequence, management has no incentive to make the life of marginal employees bearable, and every incentive to avert their eyes from bullying, etc. Cue the French complaining how 'neoliberalism' causes suicides at Orange. https://www.dw.com/en/france-orange-top-bosses-caused-employee-suicides-rules-court/a-51751140 https://www.dw.com/en/france-orange-top-bosses-caused-employ...
d13 5y ago
I worked for 3 years as a unionized game developer at public sector company in Canada and can confirm it is absolutely the best situation - for developers. All other non-unionised companies I’ve worked for - except for the small boutiques - were deeply unhappy burnout factories. Yes, you can vote with your feet - but the journey to the door is over searing hot coals. Unionise.
- eru 5y ago
  You can vote with your feet before you ever set your feet in the door in the first place. Please unionise all you want, but don't force me to be part of your union or adhere by what you negotiate.