4 ms·

That was great. While in jail I only had two serious opportunities to escape. The first an unscheduled incoming call from an embassy official meant I was broug

That was great. While in jail I only had two serious opportunities to escape. The first an unscheduled incoming call from an embassy official meant I was brought to a secure area to use a special phone. It was right by the sally port [0] which normally has at least one door closed. Both were open. I could have run directly out to the street. The guards do not carry their guns inside the jail. The second was on a run to a civil court appearance. I was carrying a huge weight in legal work, which is near impossible when your hands are cuffed tight to your waist. I told the guard he would need to carry the documents. He scoffed at the idea of this extra work. He checked my record and noted that I had no violence and no staff attacks and decided to leave me totally uncuffed so I could carry the items. When we arrived at the courthouse we had to park nearby and I got to walk down the street without any restraints. Again, I could have run, although the guards carry guns when they are outside the jail. This made us laugh while I was locked up - murder suspect escapes while guard is in the McDonald's drive through: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fldI4DXuwk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fldI4DXuwk [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantrap_(access_control) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantrap_(access_control)

Waterluvian 5y ago
Surely even if they had guns, murdering you is not an appropriate response to a possible escape?
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  Depends on how dangerous the criminal is. For a serial killer? Yeah, it might be.
  - teh_klev 5y ago
    Even a "suspected" serial killer isn't a serial killer until convicted and jailed as such (innocent until proven guilty) if they had access to the street to try and make their getaway.
    - seoaeu 5y ago
      The whole "innocent until proven guilty" entitles the accused to certain rights, but it doesn't mean everyone has to act like they are 100% definitely innocent. Taken to the extreme, that would mean you couldn't even arrest someone suspected to being a serial killer until they were convicted. Would make it a little difficult to make them stand trial...
      - watwut 5y ago
        The question is about killing the suspect.
    - PeterisP 5y ago
      If they are escaping prison, that presumes they have been convicted.
      - Someone 5y ago
        I think the strict distinction between jail and prison is American English, and not even that, in informal speech. Compare for example https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/prison?q=Prison https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis... (British English) with https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prison https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prison and https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jail https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jail (US English) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison also says “In American English, the terms prison and jail have separate definitions, though this is not always followed in casual speech.”
- Avshalom 5y ago
  I don't know about jail/prison guards but for cops the official standard for shooting some one who is running away is something like "reasonable belief that you are a danger to the community", "reasonable" might not be the specific standard but regardless it's pretty trivial for an attorney to argue that a guard believed (in the moment, and they only have to believe in the moment) they were justified. edit: here we go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner "the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others." that is of course for a suspect. If you've been convicted the standards are probably much lower.
- vmception 5y ago
  In the US, they can and do create any quantum theory of your potential actions as legal justification for any preemptive action in their local department’s catalogue of actions, which you will never be privy to at the time. You are also not privy to the exact way in which you cease being an eliminable quantum threat, which may be nonexistent. In some departments, officers have been fired for not eliminating a threat that the officer felt didn’t need to be “eliminated”. So extrajudicial capital punishment for basically anything is legal in every state and territory in the US. “Justified” only means that the action the officer chose was one of the equally weighted choices in the department’s current catalogue. It is not a tiered response, it is only an available response.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  some people get murdered before they even get to jail
- einpoklum 5y ago
  In many (most?) countries, cops often get away with killing people without actual cause which could justify a non-cop killing a person. And if the person killed is stereotypically disdained (prisoner, member of oppressed ethnic group, homeless person etc.) - then they almost always get away with it.
- raffraffraff 5y ago
  It's America though
- PeterisP 5y ago
  Depends on the jurisdiction, but at least where I live, yes, preventing escape from imprisonment is explicitly listed as a legally permitted reason for officials (both prison guards and police) to shoot someone. In general (but not always, not in e.g. armed escape) there is a requirement of warning, giving a chance to surrender without violence, but if they refuse to surrender, the society has decided that it is acceptable to shoot to kill. It's not murder (murder being unlawful killing), it's enforcement of the designated proper punishment (staying imprisoned for a certain time) by the threat of death. The death penalty isn't appropriate for most (or even any) crimes, other penalties are, and they are free to take (and expected to take) those other penalties and avoid the risk of death - however, if they intentionally refuse the appropriate punishment (prison sentence) and try to escape, that is their own choice of putting their life on the line.
- kingcharles 5y ago
  As an aside to this, I was coming back to jail from court one Friday when a guy slipped his cuffs (often really easy) and ran off down the street. The guards actually did not shoot him, but ran after him and tackled him to the ground. On return to the jail I had the guard run his name to find out how serious his alleged offense was. "He wasn't even in for a crime!" said the Guard. "WTF?". "He was only booked for the weekend - he hadn't paid child support." Now facing 5 years in prison for escape.
chmod775 5y ago
Many western countries don't even bother trying to prevent in escapes for some of their prisons. For instance in Germany about 20% of prisoners could run away daily - when they leave the prison to go to work or whatever ("open prisons"). But less than one in a hundred do. I probably don't need to tell you about some of the special Scandinavian prisons. Most people just want to get their sentence behind them, not become a fugitive. It likely was the same for you.
- LegitShady 5y ago
  a 1% escape rate seems egregious
  - atdrummond 5y ago
    Wouldn’t it be less than 0.2%? It parsed to me as less than 1 out of 100 out of those who have the opportunity via work release or other community integration initiatives.
    - dustintrex 5y ago
      Once you're in open prison/work release etc you're usually both at the tail end of your sentence and enjoying much better conditions than you were earlier, both of which are major disincentives to risking resetting the clock.
    - chmod775 5y ago
      Yes. I should have clarified that.
d0gsg0w00f 5y ago
What were you convicted of?
- kingcharles 5y ago
  Sorry, it's often unclear because of the way the word "jail" is used in English to mean both a pre-trial detention facility and a prison for the convicted. I've never actually been convicted of a crime. I was in a pre-trial facility.
seer 5y ago
As far as I know in the country where I live non violent criminals are treated much more leniently. They have “vacations” where they can go back to their families for holidays like Christmas and special events. If they do run away they’ll get a much bigger sentence, so people just return so they can get it over with.
- daniel-cussen 5y ago
  In America too, they frequently let the convicts go to their mother's funerals.

Waterluvian 5y ago

Surely even if they had guns, murdering you is not an appropriate response to a possible escape?

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
Depends on how dangerous the criminal is. For a serial killer? Yeah, it might be.
- teh_klev 5y ago
  Even a "suspected" serial killer isn't a serial killer until convicted and jailed as such (innocent until proven guilty) if they had access to the street to try and make their getaway.
  - seoaeu 5y ago
    The whole "innocent until proven guilty" entitles the accused to certain rights, but it doesn't mean everyone has to act like they are 100% definitely innocent. Taken to the extreme, that would mean you couldn't even arrest someone suspected to being a serial killer until they were convicted. Would make it a little difficult to make them stand trial...
    - watwut 5y ago
      The question is about killing the suspect.
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    If they are escaping prison, that presumes they have been convicted.
    - Someone 5y ago
      I think the strict distinction between jail and prison is American English, and not even that, in informal speech. Compare for example https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/prison?q=Prison https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis... (British English) with https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prison https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prison and https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jail https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jail (US English) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison also says “In American English, the terms prison and jail have separate definitions, though this is not always followed in casual speech.”
Avshalom 5y ago
I don't know about jail/prison guards but for cops the official standard for shooting some one who is running away is something like "reasonable belief that you are a danger to the community", "reasonable" might not be the specific standard but regardless it's pretty trivial for an attorney to argue that a guard believed (in the moment, and they only have to believe in the moment) they were justified. edit: here we go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner "the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others." that is of course for a suspect. If you've been convicted the standards are probably much lower.
vmception 5y ago
In the US, they can and do create any quantum theory of your potential actions as legal justification for any preemptive action in their local department’s catalogue of actions, which you will never be privy to at the time. You are also not privy to the exact way in which you cease being an eliminable quantum threat, which may be nonexistent. In some departments, officers have been fired for not eliminating a threat that the officer felt didn’t need to be “eliminated”. So extrajudicial capital punishment for basically anything is legal in every state and territory in the US. “Justified” only means that the action the officer chose was one of the equally weighted choices in the department’s current catalogue. It is not a tiered response, it is only an available response.
micromacrofoot 5y ago
some people get murdered before they even get to jail
einpoklum 5y ago
In many (most?) countries, cops often get away with killing people without actual cause which could justify a non-cop killing a person. And if the person killed is stereotypically disdained (prisoner, member of oppressed ethnic group, homeless person etc.) - then they almost always get away with it.
raffraffraff 5y ago
It's America though
PeterisP 5y ago
Depends on the jurisdiction, but at least where I live, yes, preventing escape from imprisonment is explicitly listed as a legally permitted reason for officials (both prison guards and police) to shoot someone. In general (but not always, not in e.g. armed escape) there is a requirement of warning, giving a chance to surrender without violence, but if they refuse to surrender, the society has decided that it is acceptable to shoot to kill. It's not murder (murder being unlawful killing), it's enforcement of the designated proper punishment (staying imprisoned for a certain time) by the threat of death. The death penalty isn't appropriate for most (or even any) crimes, other penalties are, and they are free to take (and expected to take) those other penalties and avoid the risk of death - however, if they intentionally refuse the appropriate punishment (prison sentence) and try to escape, that is their own choice of putting their life on the line.
kingcharles 5y ago
As an aside to this, I was coming back to jail from court one Friday when a guy slipped his cuffs (often really easy) and ran off down the street. The guards actually did not shoot him, but ran after him and tackled him to the ground. On return to the jail I had the guard run his name to find out how serious his alleged offense was. "He wasn't even in for a crime!" said the Guard. "WTF?". "He was only booked for the weekend - he hadn't paid child support." Now facing 5 years in prison for escape.

chmod775 5y ago

Many western countries don't even bother trying to prevent in escapes for some of their prisons. For instance in Germany about 20% of prisoners could run away daily - when they leave the prison to go to work or whatever ("open prisons"). But less than one in a hundred do. I probably don't need to tell you about some of the special Scandinavian prisons. Most people just want to get their sentence behind them, not become a fugitive. It likely was the same for you.

LegitShady 5y ago
a 1% escape rate seems egregious
- atdrummond 5y ago
  Wouldn’t it be less than 0.2%? It parsed to me as less than 1 out of 100 out of those who have the opportunity via work release or other community integration initiatives.
  - dustintrex 5y ago
    Once you're in open prison/work release etc you're usually both at the tail end of your sentence and enjoying much better conditions than you were earlier, both of which are major disincentives to risking resetting the clock.
  - chmod775 5y ago
    Yes. I should have clarified that.

d0gsg0w00f 5y ago

What were you convicted of?

kingcharles 5y ago
Sorry, it's often unclear because of the way the word "jail" is used in English to mean both a pre-trial detention facility and a prison for the convicted. I've never actually been convicted of a crime. I was in a pre-trial facility.

seer 5y ago

As far as I know in the country where I live non violent criminals are treated much more leniently. They have “vacations” where they can go back to their families for holidays like Christmas and special events. If they do run away they’ll get a much bigger sentence, so people just return so they can get it over with.

daniel-cussen 5y ago
In America too, they frequently let the convicts go to their mother's funerals.